Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:14 am GMT by Eusebio
Was thinking about the hand and wondered what you guys would think about it.
I am sitting on the button in a loose 1/2 NL game. 10 Players
Dealer missdeals my hand and shows a T 
everybody limps to the cutoff... a very aggressive player who raises to 30 (he had about 300)
I look down and find A  A  my stack is about 200
I decide to trap and just call
the flop comes 2  3 6
he immediatly bets 50...
I call
Turn 7
He fires another 50...
I call
River T
He goes all-in
How do you guys see this hand?
I will post my thoughts later...
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:12 am GMT by shorn7
I like the trap here with your stack and the player description.
But, I would have pushed the turn after he fored again. He likely has an overpiar to the board and the pot is now large enough ($210) for you to put in the rest of your $$ ($120) without raising any suspicion...in fact, he will be compelled to call if he holds KK-TT.
As played, I think you still push the river (considering the Ten flahsed before the hand started). Unless you just got incredibly unlucky, I think you doubled.
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:41 am GMT by Gogie
I agree with shorn7. I don't see anyway he could have flopped a set. The only concern might be that he has pocket 10's and rivered his set, but that's highly unlikely given that one 10 was flashed and mucked before the flop. Given his preflop bet I'd put him on at least AK with the higher likelihood being an over pair to the board.
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:06 pm GMT by Eusebio
Thanks!
I called and he showed pocket nines... (8eur tip for the dealer for the misdeal :D )
The ten was actually the best card for me on the river since I knew there are just 2 of them in the deck...
The guys was trying to play tablecaptain, bullying arround with his stack and he players on the table had huge respect for him.
When i saw the aces my plan was to just call and have a look at the flop...
I immediatly put him on a medium PP, trying to win the pot right there, because with QQ or KK I thought he would raise less, to get at least some action...
So when the flop would have been scary (suited (not my suit) or just highcards) i wouldnt have done this, after his flopbet I was pretty sure i am very much ahead and here is the real question of this topic  :
In your opinion is it better to win the pot right there and bet out (trying to make him fold) or should i really always go for the maximum (if the read is, lets say 90% accurate)
I decided on the flop that i will try to put all my money in there, regardless what cards are coming, because my chances of winning this pot are 90% of 91% (90% accurcy of the read)= so i am more than an 80% favorite from my point of view (on the flop)
What do you think of that approach?
When I talked with friends about the hand, they couldnt believe that i was just calling... letting him draw
Thanks for the advice "pushing on the turn"... i guess that is very true, because every overcard to his pair could slow him down and it should be will almost have to call (just about 70 more)
PS: a nice sideeffect: he played very timidly afterwards and his reputation was almost gone...
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:13 pm GMT by exit music
I'm a big fan of slowplaying Aces, that was a bit of a disaster flop for ya there, personally I would abandon the slowplay trick on the flop and start betting/re-raising.
The goal of slowplaying AA is to make it very hard to put you on AA. By slowing down preflop, you accomplish that goal. By betting on the flop you let 99 think he's trapped you so he'll probably raise or re-raise ya.
In this situation slowplaying preflop is fine, but slowplaying after the flop is risky and stupid. YOu let anyone draw for cheep, plus you really have no idea where you stand in the hand. Just call-call-call-call, you are crossing your fingers and hoping that your opponent can't beat 1 pair.
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:20 pm GMT by exit music
| Eusebio wrote: |
I immediatly put him on a medium PP, trying to win the pot right there, because with QQ or KK I thought he would raise less, to get at least some action...
In your opinion is it better to win the pot right there and bet out (trying to make him fold) or should i really always go for the maximum (if the read is, lets say 90% accurate)
What do you think of that approach?
|
Sorry about the double post, but
No read is 90% accurate, thinking in this manner is ignorant and could eventually be very costly. You have to put your opponent on a range of hands (50% chance he has a mid-pocket, 30% chance he has a pair and a draw, 20% chance he's bluffing) ect. Try to figure out which hand is most likely and act on that possibility and also other possibilities. Saying "well, I think he has AK" or "well, I think he has a low pair" can get you into serious trouble if you like playing passively and calling on every street.
Posted Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:40 pm GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | I'm a big fan of slowplaying Aces, that was a bit of a disaster flop for ya there, personally I would abandon the slowplay trick on the flop and start betting/re-raising. |
Why Exit? The guy raosed preflop after a bunch of limpers. Do we really put him on a pair that now made a set? I don't. Since we are a 9-1 favorite on the flop, I think it is fine to let him draw in order to make his call of your turn push automatic. If the stack sizes were really deep, then I agree a riase on the flop is probably better, but given the stack sizes I think he played the hand perfectly.
Posted Fri Feb 09, 2007 12:51 am GMT by Phil14312
Looks fine to me. You aren't and probably should never fold aces here, on that board, with those stacks.
Posted Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:47 am GMT by Eusebio
| Quote: | | that was a bit of a disaster flop for ya there |
Why do you think its a disasterflop?
In my opinion, the only flop that could have been better would be like 225.
Just lowcards... after all the limpers (which were calling bets of 20 preflop with hands like KT) I think he is ok with winning the amount which is already in there, so he does not want to see a flop. hands that are strong preflop, but lose a lot of quality postflop are hands like 88-QQ and/or AK. So given the range of hands there was a good chance he missed.
If I raise him on the flop, he could be suspicious about a set and even though he played very loose, I think it would slow him down.
In fact he didnt draw very cheap, except on the turn. He thought he was valuebetting, guess he put me on AK or something, but he wasnt... it cost him 50 on every street to draw to 2 outs, but i agree that i never knew where i was... i was pretty sure, I was, where I was (does this sentence make sence??  sorry about my english) but it was definitly not crossing fingers and hoping, since the board texture wasnt connecting to the hands i put him on (of course i could always be wrong) and the only scarecard for me (T) was not really scary, since there were just 2 in the deck
but you are right, exit, on the fact, that thinking of a read to be 90% precize is a bit optimistic...
Could you imagine folding your Aces in this spot? I could not get away, so the money will be in the middle, one way or another...
Thanks again for the advice of pushing the turn... I think that would have been pretty important... next time then 
How do you guys think that stack sizes could/should change the hand?
Posted Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:13 am GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | How do you guys think that stack sizes could/should change the hand? |
If you were shorter, then all the $$ goes in earlier. There is just no way to get away from your hand when short...either you push preflop, or you push to his bet on the flop. It all depends on your stack size relative to the pot and what he has left too.
If you were really deep (say each of you had $2k), then you should raise on the flop to potentially save the rest of your stack and manage the pot size (i.e., if he somehow did flop a set, he will likely just call your raise on the flop at which point you slow down and check behind on the turn. Since your stack is a lot bigger than the pot, you want to do what you can to protect it and not worry about the pot as much.).
Posted Fri Feb 09, 2007 10:37 am GMT by tame_deuces
I also think slowplaying aces when deep is a recipe for disaster. 
(not referring to this hand obv).
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 4:05 pm GMT by Kearsed
I would of re raised 100 on top when I saw the flop
I wouldnt put him on trips or a straight, I would of put him on any pair higher than the flop.
Posted Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:14 am GMT by Phil14312
| Kearsed wrote: | I would of re raised 100 on top when I saw the flop
I wouldnt put him on trips or a straight, I would of put him on any pair higher than the flop. |
No offense, but this makes no sense. Wouldn't you want him to be the aggressor with a hand that has 2 outs?
Posted Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:34 pm GMT by lwestatbus
There wasn't any discussion of what happened to the other players. You'd indicated that they were calling 20-bets preflop with AK but all we know for sure was that there had been six limpers (everybody up to cutoff in a ten person table--right?) and cutoff raised to 30. The rest of the narrative just discusses you and him.
With this loose a table you have to try to get heads up with this guy. So, did you think that his raise was going to clear the table? You indicated that this might have been his intention but what did YOU think it would be at the time. You had to act immediately after his raise and then wait to see what the blinds and limpers were going to do. I would be very worried that anyone with a PP and maybe some other hands would see the 67.50 already in the pot (correct?) as giving him implied odds to at least see the flop.
I rarely succeed when I try to be clever with big pocket pairs (and those that play them against me DO seem to succeed--go figure). You made a lot of money, and congratulations, but I think you got a little lucky also. I'll caveat my caution by saying that if you honestly thought that his raise and your call would clear out the blinds and limpers then you were OK to call. But I also agree that you should have closed the door on him after the flop to either limit his ability to draw out or to at least get your money in with the best hand.
Many in the forum know that my experience with NL is very limited and NL cash game experience (almost) non-existent so take these comments with a grain of salt. However my experience getting sucked out on is overwhelming.
Congrats again.
Posted Thu Feb 22, 2007 4:22 pm GMT by Eusebio
People in this cardroom are calling 15-20 preflop without hesitation...
everything over 20 gets respect... so i was pretty sure that we would get heads up or a 3-way action... with 3 in the pot I would have pushed on the flop, but your point is a very good one... I was so sure that I would be HU against him, that i didnt consider it well enough...
The problem here is, a raise will give him a hint that I have a premiumhand... I thought he had QQ or KK, I guess he would go all the way with one of those hands, but with a 99 its likely that he would check the flop, wait for my bet (which i would have to make here, i think) and then fold...
Of course it was a little risky, and sometimes it will go the other way (e.g. I had KK and this guys called 3 bets including all in on the turn with nothing... got his ace on the river), but math says i should win more often then lose
Eventhough 200 EUR is a big part of my bankroll ( NL200 is probably too much for my BR but there are no other livegames), I try to always go for the maximum... if i am pretty sure that he is drawing to a 2-outer... I let him draw if i can get some money out of it... dont know if its the right tactic, but i will learn it one way or another
Posted Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:11 am GMT by VisualCSharp
I don't know why so many players are afraid of AA. AA against any hand is dominating that hand over the course of all possible 5-card boards, usually between 80% and 90%. That means that the order of the cards on the board, betting, player image, table position, etc. mean close to nothing. AA will win a vast majority of the time.
The problem that most folks seem to have with big pocket pairs is an unwillingness to be outplayed after the flop. "Gee, he just raised me on a connected board. I only have one pair, I guess I need to fold." While there is something to be said for putting someone on a particular hand preflop and then getting a read on someone after the flop to determine if you are beat, statistically, in the vast majority of the cases, AA is still good after the flop.
Slowplay more against LAG players and be hyper-aggressive more with TAG players. If a LAG player is betting and raising on the flop like a madman there's a great chance he is on a draw or being too aggressive with a hand like 99. Let him kill his pot equity for his draw. Over time AA will hold up more than whatever trash he's playing. You can get away from AA postflop more against TAG players but even on the flop the board would have to be pretty scary (suited and connected for example).
I believe the psychology of being dealt and playing AA, rather than any particular hand history, is the interesting thing. I think it stems from an unwillingness to accept defeat that 10-20% of the time. AA is not unbeatable. As long as you're prepared to accept that you'll rake in a lot of money with them.
Posted Fri Feb 23, 2007 7:54 am GMT by MrDarling
Its true A's are at least 75% favorite HU. However against 4 players it goes under 50%. You are still a huge favorite against each of them apart, but you will now lose the pot more then 1 in 2 time.
This is why we always try to get it to HU PF. If you slowplay it and let 3-4 people into the pot, don't complain when you get busted, since math says it should happen just as often as winning.
As for being afraid, I don't think anyone doesn't like to look down and see A's. The only time I do not get overly excited about them is the first levels of a low level MTT, where few people are bound to call any reasonable PF raise and post flop you can't tell if their push is 2nd pair Top kicker, 2 weird unconnected pairs (like J7) or a set...
Posted Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:23 pm GMT by lwestatbus
I agree with Darling completely and one of his points just sparked an interesting new line of thinking about AA early in a tournament.
| MrDarling wrote: | | Its true A's are at least 75% favorite HU. However against 4 players it goes under 50%. You are still a huge favorite against each of them apart, but you will now lose the pot more then 1 in 2 time. |
Exactly. If you have AA against any other pair preflop they have a 20% chance of drawing a set on you (but 4% of the time they draw out on you you will make your set also). But this percentage is almost linear with the number of players against you.
| MrDarling wrote: | | The only time I do not get overly excited about them is the first levels of a low level MTT, where few people are bound to call any reasonable PF raise and post flop you can't tell if their push is 2nd pair Top kicker, 2 weird unconnected pairs (like J7) or a set... |
This was very interesting. Even though you have a great hand you are undertaking a lot of risk for not much of a reward. If you push in huge preflop you are likely to only pick up the blinds--not very rewarding. If you push in at a level that invites action you may get it, to your regret.
|
|
