Posted Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:08 pm GMT by TheSalche
so pissed off ... down a buyin already
PokerStars Game #8363705909: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/02/09 - 23:04:24 (ET)
Table 'Dschubba V' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: toska82 ($93.70 in chips)
Seat 2: ftnillini ($113.75 in chips)
Seat 3: Sonny617 ($99.50 in chips)
Seat 5: warren88 ($93.50 in chips)
Seat 6: societymax ($97.65 in chips)
warren88: posts small blind $0.50
societymax: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sonny617  
toska82: folds
ftnillini: folds
Sonny617: raises $3 to $4
warren88: calls $3.50
societymax: folds
*** FLOP ***   
warren88: checks
Sonny617: bets $6
warren88: calls $6
*** TURN *** 
warren88: checks
Sonny617: bets $13
warren88: calls $13
*** RIVER *** 
warren88: checks
Sonny617: bets $25
warren88: calls $25
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Sonny617: shows (high card Ace)
warren88: shows   (a pair of Eights)
warren88 collected $95 from pot
Sonny617 said, "wow ..."
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $97 | Rake $2
Board
Seat 1: toska82 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: ftnillini folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Sonny617 (button) showed and lost with high card Ace
Seat 5: warren88 (small blind) showed and won ($95) with a pair of Eights
Seat 6: societymax (big blind) folded before Flop
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Posted Fri Feb 09, 2007 11:29 pm GMT by TheSalche
clearly he never has ace king or ace queen here so i can get some monies off my set ...
PokerStars Game #8364088193: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/02/09 - 23:28:29 (ET)
Table 'Dschubba V' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: toska82 ($152.80 in chips)
Seat 2: ftnillini ($95.50 in chips)
Seat 3: Sonny617 ($102.45 in chips)
Seat 4: 2001 RC 51 ($19.55 in chips)
Seat 5: warren88 ($132.05 in chips)
Seat 6: societymax ($102.15 in chips)
Sonny617: posts small blind $0.50
2001 RC 51: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sonny617 
warren88: folds
societymax: folds
toska82: raises $3 to $4
ftnillini: folds
Sonny617: raises $8 to $12
2001 RC 51: folds
toska82: calls $8
*** FLOP ***  
Sonny617: bets $16
toska82: folds
Sonny617 collected $23.75 from pot
Sonny617: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $25 | Rake $1.25
Board
Seat 1: toska82 folded on the Flop
Seat 2: ftnillini (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Sonny617 (small blind) collected ($23.75)
Seat 4: 2001 RC 51 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: warren88 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: societymax folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:56 am GMT by shorn7
Not sure I like you firing on all three streets on Hand #1. Unless you have seen him fold to a river bet a lot, I save the last $25. He looks like a caller who put you on a hand and wasn't about to let go.
Second hand...those are the breaks. Sometimes when we flop our set, nobody has anything. It sux, but nothing you can do.
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:09 am GMT by kingetje
you probably wouldve gotten some action on your set if you hadnt re-raised
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:12 am GMT by aaronw
| kingetje wrote: | | you probably wouldve gotten some action on your set if you hadnt re-raised |
Are you saying that you dont like the 3-bet there PF?
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:15 am GMT by kingetje
not at all
just saying he wouldve prolly gotten some action if he hadnt looked so strong pre-flop
i usually go half/half with calling a raise/re-raising with hands like TT
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:31 am GMT by aaronw
I probably 3-bet TT on the button like 80% of the time. I do it for a few reasons. We usually knock out the blinds and get the hand heads up, which is good. We take control of the hand. Sometimes we take it down PF, which is never really a bad thing.
One thing you have to remember here is that by 3-betting we won ourself the pot. If we didn't flop a set and the flop came A92 instead we would have taken it down and it would have been a good play. Lets just think about what would have happened if we didnt 3-bet PF and the flop came A92, what do we do then? Just give up? Float him? I think 3-betting is the right play here.
I think you are the only person I have played with here (to my knowledge anyway) and I noticed that you are pretty passive PF. With all due respect, I think you need to start raising and reraising more pots. I think you limp too many hands and play a bit passively all around. Do you have Poker Tracker? If so, what are your VPIP and PFR stats, if you dont mind my asking? I played with you for a bit and had you at like 30/10 or something like that. And I think you could probably get alot better just by tightening up a bit PF and getting more aggressive.
My apologies if this is out of line, I'm just trying to help a bit here....
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 11:54 am GMT by Ensano
I don't mind simply calling the raise with 10s, just as long as you KNOW you're going to get heads up...
OTB heads up you have position... if the flop comes A92raindow...
he checks.. you bet...he folds
he checks.. you bet...he raises you fold...
he bets... you raise... he folds...
he bets... you call... turn he checks... you bet... he folds...
of course there is many more situations than this... was just throwing out a couple of ideal ones...
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:19 pm GMT by kingetje
well to be honest i think you MIGHT be a little out of line there... we played maybe what? 100 hands together on a table or so?
anyway, you are right that i might be a bit passive pre-flop in cashgames at times, in terms of not raising/re-raising enough (not in SnGs or MTTs though). i like to play alot of hands, and i am of opinion that most money is won by decisions made post-flop and not pre-flop, at least for me
however, i dont think i can be considered as passive post-flop... let me just get that straight.
i do like 3-betting though with such hands, because it gives ya the initiative in the rest of the hand. but some people seem to want to have that initiative in every hand they play... that doesnt really work for me
anyway, here are some stats. share some comments if you want please
(NL $1...... 14,215 hands)
VPIP: 44.12
PF raise %: 11.15
Preflop Agression Factor: 0.31
Flop Agression Factor: 4.41
and could you show me your stats
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:30 pm GMT by aaronw
I apologize if I was out of line. Im just trying to help.
It looks to me that you limp or call way!!!!!!!!!! too much. Thats just me though. I definately could be wrong. You are right that we did only play like 100 hands together, but I was just telling you what I saw through those hands.
I think the optimal way to play in a cash game is aggressive and have your vpip and PFR atleast somewhat close together. 24/20 is better than 24/5 because you are being an aggressive player. And we all know that aggression wins money in NL.
My stats over 7k hands at PP $100NL- 23/19/4.
The stats for the other sites are on my other computer right now, but to my recollection they were something like 27/25/4 on FT.
I apologize again if I was out of line. I was just trying to help. I wasnt trying to start any arguments or anything like that.
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:50 pm GMT by kingetje
no doubt, thanks for the reply.
that IS pretty shocking to see my VPIP being so much higher then the raise perc.
but it feels weird to start altering my play, not because i feel im not playing well but because i need to switch up some stats in a program to make them "better" or "how they should be".
i did always know that i did limp alot, and obviously aggression is key in 6 handed NL..... but not strictly preflop. i might start re-popping these types of hands a little more often from now on.... but you know as always... it depends. :D
plus i now learned what it means when people say stuff like "villain was 40/25" or " this UBERDONK was 32/19" and shit like that... i never had a clue as to what these numbers meant and what they pertained to... now i know.
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 12:57 pm GMT by aaronw
I think you may want to start limping with a lot less marginal hands and raising more PF. Personally, I never open limp. Do you open limp a lot? At all? If you are trying to get better I would start with trying to get your VPIP and PFR a bit closer together, which I think would be a more optimal way of playing (in my opinion, anyway).
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:01 pm GMT by TheSalche
king -
if you call a re-raise with AJ/AQ/AK and the flop comes AT2 with a two flush, are you really folding?
my guess is the guy had some pocket pair other than aces or twos
so all the more action i would've gotten was maybe a $6 or $7 cbet, which is less than my $8 3bet, and WAY less than his stack, which I would've gotten if he had AK
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:09 pm GMT by kingetje
| Quote: | | I think you may want to start limping with a lot less marginal hands and raising more PF. Personally, I never open limp. Do you open limp a lot? At all? If you are trying to get better I would start with trying to get your VPIP and PFR a bit closer together, which I think would be a more optimal way of playing (in my opinion, anyway). |
if it gets folded to me and i want to play the hand, i will definitely raise almost all of the time. i might limp under the gun though (is that considered open limping?). if the table is filled with push-overs and/or nits
| Quote: | king -
if you call a re-raise with AJ/AQ/AK and the flop comes AT2 with a two flush, are you really folding? |
nah you wouldve just earned his continuation bet is what i was getting at
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:14 pm GMT by aaronw
Yes, that is considered open limping. What types of hands would you limp here? Also, if the table is full of nits, why not raise? If they are tight you might just take it down PF, which is never a bad thing.
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:23 pm GMT by kingetje
what types of hands? shit, KQ, KT , small suited connectors, small pocket pairs etc... but its not like i wouldnt raise with them, i would. i would just also limp with them from time to time
and indeed its not bad to win a pot preflop, but im not really interested in picking up the blinds in cashgames. i am interested in playing interesting hands against idiots though, and winning the a sizeable pot in a limped pot.
a raised pot stands or falls most of the time on the success of the continuation bet. im not looking for so much "pressure" in all hands i play.
but in the end, there is of course not ONE way to play... we all have our own styles that work or may not work for others. i believe you, aaron are someone who, in most hands you play wants to be the initial raiser... like always RE-raising with small PPs and such... thats not per se my steeze. and if i look at the long term results my style works for me.... profitably.
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 1:33 pm GMT by aaronw
You are absolutely right that not one style is best way to play. I guess that if you are a winning player that your style must work for you.
Posted Sat Feb 10, 2007 7:32 pm GMT by tame_deuces
My impression is that bad players stack of alot more easily in raised pots.
Hence I for instance like to raise PPs because on low stakes people tend to call with reasonable pretty hands they would otherwise just limp with, and the pot size gives them much fewer choices, for instance if they raise a c-bet once, betsizes have gotten so big you can get easily get a large portion of their stack in, and they'll make bad calls for much larger bets.
Ofcourse, we'll also fold more often in bigger pots sometimes, so maybe it all just evens out, I dunno.
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