5/10 NL Hand for thoughts |
|
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:22 am GMT by shorn7
OK, so I have been playing mostly 1/2 and 2/4 since my horrible January run and doing pretty well. But, I logged on last night and saw what appeared to be a very soft 5/10 $1000 max. game going, so I decided to take a shot. This hand comes up about 1 hour into the session. Villain had built a nice stack and doesn't seem to be overly aggressive, but I haven't seen him show down more than a few hands and they were all solid. At the beginning of the hand, villain has $2200 and I have around $1100.
Villain raises UTG to $35 and it is folded to me on the button. I have QdQh. This is a hand that I play differently depending on my opponent, stack sizes, and my position. In this case since villain seems pretty solid, I decide to just call his raise and not re-raise (I am sure many of you will disagree with this play).
Blinds fold, so we go to the flop 2 handed with $85 in the pot.
Flop comes 6  8  J . Villain INSTANTLY bets the pot size (and I mean like he clicked the button to bet the pot before the flop came it happened so quickly). Again, since I have no specific read on him at this point, this could mean a bunch of things (AA, KK, AK, AQ, JJ, complete air, etc.). I decide that I don't want to be pushed off the hand here to a big re-raise, and I also think that I might definitely be ahead here, so I decide to just call again (weak? agree?).
Turn is the T  for board of 6 8 J T . Villain quickly checks. Pot is $255 and I have $980 left. It smells like he continued with overs on the flop and is now conceding. So, I bet $200 (thoughts on this size? too big? too little? anybody check here?).
Villain thinks for half his bank and pushes all-in over the top. So, $1435 in the pot for me to call $780. What is your play and why?
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:29 am GMT by Dave B
I think that you need to fold.
Unless he has AK AQ A10 KQ clubs and wants to push with his huge draw, which would seem to contradict that way he played so far, I only see AJ as a hand that you can beat. He likely has AA KK QQ JJ or 10s.
Tough fold, but I think you can find a better spot.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:18 am GMT by kingetje
i think that you need to call.
you have severely misrepresented your hand... he can never put you on anything as strong as QQ by the way you played it right? (not re-raising pre-flop, just calling on the flop)
although it is pretty sucky that besides being beat by AA and KK, now JJ and TT also beat us
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:27 am GMT by Dave B
Dont forget 97 Q10 66 88 J10 J8 J6 108 106 86
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:45 am GMT by Ensano
I agree with dave... even at lower stakes this is a pretty common way to suck a hand in for aces...
you makes an average cbet... if you get a caller you know they like their hand so on the turn you check it to them so they can take initiative... they bet then depending on their stack you throw in a c/r and now they're stuck...
POKERSTARS GAME #8360580863: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/02/09 - 19:48:42 (ET)
Table 'Munoz' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: lucky_fishs ($173.05 in chips)
Seat 2: plokio ($46.45 in chips)
Seat 3: hauff2 ($32.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Senecady ($39.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Ensano ($85.35 in chips)
Seat 6: Rudolf ($58.50 in chips)
Seat 7: drkcloud ($19.65 in chips)
Seat 8: Kingcovey ($129.55 in chips)
Seat 9: Romanichine ($98.20 in chips)
Romanichine: posts small blind $0.50
lucky_fishs: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ensano  
plokio: folds
hauff2: folds
Senecady: raises $3 to $4
Ensano: calls $4
Rudolf: folds
drkcloud: folds
Kingcovey: folds
Romanichine: folds
lucky_fishs: folds
*** FLOP ***   
Senecady: bets $7
Ensano: calls $7
*** TURN *** 
Senecady: checks
Ensano: bets $14
Senecady: raises $14.50 to $28.50 and is all-in
Ensano: calls $14.50
*** RIVER *** 
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Senecady: shows   (two pair, Aces and Fives)
Ensano: mucks hand
Senecady collected $77.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $80.50 | Rake $3
Board
Seat 1: lucky_fishs (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: plokio folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: hauff2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Senecady showed and won ($77.50) with two pair, Aces and Fives
Seat 5: Ensano mucked
Seat 6: Rudolf folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: drkcloud folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Kingcovey (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Romanichine (small blind) folded before Flop
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:46 am GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | Dont forget 97 Q10 66 88 J10 J8 J6 108 106 86 |
Other than potentially 88 and JTs here, do we really think this guy (which I have stated is definitely NOT a LAG) raised UTG with the rest of the range above?
I will give you JJ and TT as possibilities, but I am not sure about the rest
Also, as King has stated here, I have under-represented my hand quite a bit here so there is literally no way he can put me on QQ. Also, do we think a normal player will play AA and KK that way on thsi board when there are draws galore out there on the turn? Would he chance me checking behind? I doubt it. That is a horrible play from AA or KK unless he knows me to be so aggressive that I never check the turn in this spot (which he doesn't and I am never that consistent).
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:55 am GMT by Dave B
I dont think those hands were likely, but I dont think that you can completely ignore them as being out there.
Even bottom set isnt as secure as K  J w/ a board of A Q 7 8 2 . A pair is just a pair. If you put a certain % likelyhood of AA KK, then you also have to assign a small % to the fact they they might be using their decent stack to get crafty.
My post was in response to the comment that we need to worry about JJ too, well we also have to worry about someone mixing up there game.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:57 am GMT by supafrey
That's a pretty standard KK/AA line. You're really just guessing here whether he's bluffing or not.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:24 pm GMT by Phil14312
There has to be very little chance we are good.
Question: you said you didn't want a huge re-raise on the flop. Why not? Why not raise the flop and then fold to a re-raise, he doesn't seem the type to pull that with 99, TT, or overcards right? Isn't that all the information we need in the hand?
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:36 pm GMT by supafrey
| Phil14312 wrote: | There has to be very little chance we are good.
Question: you said you didn't want a huge re-raise on the flop. Why not? Why not raise the flop and then fold to a re-raise, he doesn't seem the type to pull that with 99, TT, or overcards right? Isn't that all the information we need in the hand? |
Raising flops that early with monsters hides the strength of our hand, but doesn't really help us on future streets. What happens if we're called? Does that really give us more information? Or raised? All we did was call preflop.. there's no reason to suspect our opp "knows" what we have and will play so easily for us, Phil. TPTK could put us in a tricky spot right now, but there's a WIDE range of speculative hands that would have to call a flop raise. And what happens on the turn? We check behind? Bet AGAIN? Suddenly we're in a big pot with a tricky hand that makes it FAR too easy for us to make "big" mistakes.
Not to mention any turn check would get an automatic river bet from the opp, and because of how concealed our hand is the range of hands we need to call a river bet with gets to be pretty widespread.. again, opportunity for a big mistake.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:05 pm GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | That's a pretty standard KK/AA line. You're really just guessing here whether he's bluffing or not. |
Really? I totally discounted thos ehands simply because the turn card made it possible for more draws out there and he still checked. Woud you holding AA or KK give a potentially free card on that turn? I certainly wouldn't. But, I can't say that I could be sure he wouldn't do that. I just found that to be less likely. I agree with your other post though that I am kinda guessing a bit here.
How would you have played this one differently supa?
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 1:58 pm GMT by supafrey
I like to raise preflop with QQ, personally =/
I've seen KK/AA do that many many times on scary AND unscary boards, but I've also seen complete bluffs do it. Hence the guessing game.
once the flop comes you're just in a tricky situation altogether. I keep the pot small like you said.
Main point:
The problem comes in from the fact that there's little reason for your opp to think you have a "monster" with the way you've played it so slowly. Because of this, TPTK could be right in doing this line against you just as easily as KK/AA would be. Had you played it stronger, no second or third pair would be trying something like this (which may sound like a bad thing but actually isn't, probably) and you could be more assured in the strength of their cards. Hrms. It's kind of counterintuitive. You almost want to SHOW strength to give your opp a little more information about your hand, that way they wouldn't dare pull this shit with average holdings. The bluffing ranges are so wide now that you may indeed have to call (your hand is fairly freaking high in the range of possible holdings your opp could put you on). This seems like a really interesting subject to write a looooong article about but I'm so freaking lazy. Hrms... maybe I will.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 3:45 pm GMT by shorn7
| Quote: | | I like to raise preflop with QQ, personally =/ |
I do too as first raise, but I was facing an UTG raiser here who seemed a little on the tight side. Do you still re-raise? If he was a LAG then I raise without even thinking, but he clearly wasn't that from what I had seen.
If you re-raise and he comes over the top, do you muck? That is something I hate to do with QQ in a 100 bb stack game. Obviously if the game were a lot deeper, I think that makes sense.
I am really looking for some thoughts here because I am not sure that I play QQ optimally a lot of the time and it may be a leak.
Thanks in advance supa.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:01 pm GMT by supafrey
yeah i reraise a lot pre with QQ. More so than KK or AA. My range of raising hands is so wide that I really need to make profit when I can. I call a lot of pushes with it, too, and am rarely too behind. Ppl raise a lot with me.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:39 pm GMT by tame_deuces
6 8 T J is a fairly wet for the raiser against a preflop caller though. Yes, he doesn't know we have queens, but he doesn't seem to be care overly much for what we could be holding either and holding queens seems only marginally better than holding TP on this board.
Ofcourse, 1kNL has alot tougher players than the kiddie games I usually play.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:56 pm GMT by supafrey
I'm guessing you called and he showed KK.
Do i win?
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:08 pm GMT by exit music
I feel like you played this hand very blindly, and as a result you really have no clue where you stand.
If you raise preflop and get called, you not only define your hand a little bit, but you will get a much better read on your opponent's hand as well.
But assuming you call the flop, by raising on the flop you are representing A-J or better, if you get raised or called he is saying that he isn't all that worried about AJ.
But since you called the flop, you are saying that you either have a monster that you are slowplaying, or you are saying that you don't believe the line your opponent is selling you.
If your opponent checks to you on 4th street, a check is by far the best option because of many things
-you picked up a gutshot, taking free cards pwns
-you are either way ahead in this hand or you are way behind, betting gives you no value and gives your opponent lots of value
-you potentially induce another bluff on the river if he has a hand like AK
So in light of how you played preflop and on the flop, you just gotta check/call this all the way down. Don't change the story you are trying to sell 2/3rds through, that's confusing and costly.
Although if you got him to bluff all-in with nothing, good for you, but as I said before, you played the hand very blindly and you are left with very few options other than folding or praying.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:12 pm GMT by supafrey
wouldn't a check behind on the turn be letting worse hands catch up? Like.. a lot of them?
With QQ?
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:18 pm GMT by exit music
| supafrey wrote: | wouldn't a check behind on the turn be letting worse hands catch up? Like.. a lot of them?
With QQ? |
Like what? AK? Ax? I don't know what else you might put him on, if he is good enough to spike 2 pair or trips on the river that's awesome for him.
Basically I'll take that 60/40 or better and just hope he doesn't suck out. I honestly can't think of a hand that would call a bet on the turn and not be ahead unless he thinks you are bluffing, and if he thinks I am bluffing I'll confirm his thoughts that my hand isn't too strong and I'll take whatever he is willing to fire at me on the river. And if he's got AA/KK he doesn't get my whole stack, he gets maybe a $200-$300 chunk of it.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 6:29 pm GMT by supafrey
A turn bet isn't just for value here. We want the hand to end, right now. Checking behind on the turn lets waaaaayyyy too many crappy hands have a chance (AK is a crappy hand for instance), lets waaaayyy too many mediocre hands get away safely, and we're still probably going to haveta either pay off a weird river or find a very dangerous river card that may even have us fold the best hand.
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:16 pm GMT by Ensano
| exit music wrote: |
If you raise preflop and get called,... you will get a much better read on your opponent's hand.... |
what hands that raise UTG don't call a reraise? what info are you really getting? we only know anything if he 3bets... even then?
Posted Fri Feb 16, 2007 7:27 pm GMT by Gunslinger
| Ensano wrote: | | we only know anything if he 3bets |
As supa once said to this same statement: erm... exactly?
Posted Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:00 pm GMT by jeffonline
I think you sensed you were behind in this hand from the beginning, or were concerned about going up against this player, but because of your position and a good starting hand you stayed in but played it without conviction. I don’t know if your in front or behind, what I do know is that, allowing villain to dictate the play puts me behind the majority of time.
Posted Sun Feb 18, 2007 9:43 pm GMT by shorn7
Ok guys...thanks for the comments.
I called, he turned over 99, didn't improve and I took it down. Not that the results matter, but...
Posted Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:29 am GMT by snoogins47
The turn check raise is interesting (I'm late in coming, haven't read any responses yet) It seems at least a bit unorthodox for just about any of his possible holdings... I tend to think something like AcKc is pretty likely here, but it's hard to really try to peg how likely this is a semi-bluff, and how likely he's got us pretty well crushed. We're not in overpowering shape even against most semi-bluffy type hands though, considering a reasonable UTG raise range... so I probably gotta give fold the nod on this one. It'd take a whole lot of certainty that he'd never check the turn with KK/AA/a set here, or seeing AK/AQ/KQ NO FLUSHDRAW a surprising amount, to make the call here. (First one seems way more likely than the second) It's probably close though.
The rest of the hand seems about right. I actually tend to prefer the flat call preflop, though I re-raise here a decent chunk of the time as well. New to the table, and without much of an image preceding me, (read as: they treat me as a random) re-raising with QQ here can often be a ticket to getting stacked. QQ is nice, but against a standard UTG range we're probably at best about a 3:2 favorite, and when he calls our re-raise, we're in the fun position of having no idea where we stand, somewhat frequently being crushed, while our opponent will be able to put us on a very small range, fairly accurately, and play accordingly.
I might like raising the flop against, say, Supa, or somebody else who's known to fire again on the turn. Against a lot of folks, calling the flop bet actually gives us MORE info (or more useful info, or something) than raising would. Besides, we may be ahead of his range right now, but if so, it's probably not by that much.
As supa said, board seems way too drawy to check behind on the turn. Save that for the hands where the river card + inevitable river bet are NOT going to make us puke like half the time.
Posted Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:35 am GMT by supafrey
| snoogins47 wrote: | (I'm late in coming, haven't read any responses yet)
.....
As supa said, board seems way too drawy to check behind on the turn. Save that for the hands where the river card + inevitable river bet are NOT going to make us puke like half the time. |
Veeeeeeeeery interesting.
|
|
