Ciso Overcalling At Crucial Time? |
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Posted Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:13 am GMT by Ciso_B
Hey , this is a hand from live play today.
3 people left
Ciso - 115,000
Chip Leader - 475,000 (roughly)
Villain- 160,000 (tight player)
Blinds are 6,000/12,000
Chip leader limps in, sb calls I check with A  5  . I decided to check simply cos I felt the chip leader would call with whatever he limped in with and I also though itd be a good oppurtunity to win chips if an Ace fell since I checked. Flop came K  2 3 .Check,Check,Check. Turn 6 . Check,Check, Chip leader bets 25,000. He was playing pretty standard , I felt like he couldnt have much of anything seen we checked both streets and took a shot So I just called feeling like I had the better hand here.
River 3 .....I dwelled about pushing here but instead decided to check encase he had the flush. He put me all in at this stage at which point I was seriously considering a call. Problem is , He hadnt showed down any bluffs on FT and had ran extremely lucky up till now. I eventually called without really studying him enough, factoring in that if I folded I would be v short stacked and left with little chance and if I was right I would be in with a good shot of winning.
Bear in mind, I was not up for doing any deals and prizes were £2,300....£1590.....£1,190.
Is there any way I can be ahead? Or is it a really bad call at a crucial point in time? Opinions welcome.
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Posted Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:28 am GMT by Dave B
I dont see how you can fold at this point.
Posted Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:30 am GMT by jeffonline
3 handed, Its hard to see where CL could be in front but I going with a small PP, I am thinking 77, just seems to me that the chip leader does not have to play this hand without something and setting traps is the order of day. The K on the flop has kept him out and the 2 flush draws have sparked him into action. Please post result.
Posted Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:43 pm GMT by Ensano
if you call you're beat and you're out of the tourney...
if you fold you'll be very shortstacked BUT still in...
I'd fold then get to some maniac SS style playing...
I agree with jeff's read... low/med PP sounds about right... although it is 3 handed and a PP would prob raise unless it's really low... KK-1010 would also work hoping someone would raise preflop... hmmm...
my pick... villian has a set...
Posted Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:53 pm GMT by vyni
Rather than speculate on what cl may be holding, I'm more concerned with the volume of hands that we're not beating: our A5 here is sooooo weak, I don't see how we can call here, or how we called the turn bet. cl may hold nothing, simply bullying us with his lead, but as short stack for us to call here hoping its all bs.... that's an ugly gamble. I know we're short stacked, after calling the turn we're at 83k with a 12k bb, but I'ld have to look/hope for a better position to be in in the next few deals. Calling that turn hurt us here, badly.
Hope I'm wrong for you and he was bluffing with an A4, QJ, or QT.
Posted Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:29 pm GMT by Dave B
Oh shit, I am sorry, I thought that we had a straight 2-6.
Now I know how Urateup feels.
I dont care if I have him beat, I fold here.
Posted Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:19 pm GMT by Jauron
We could have him beat, but I don't want to call. I'd rather we pushed on the turn.
Posted Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:52 am GMT by fiezk
He bet 2/3 of the pot on the turn after being checked to twice, and you called. Now he has to put you on either a 2, 3 or hearts. The 3 of hearts comes on the river and he puts you all-in. Unless villain is a donkey, or has a great read, he would not push with a 6 here. In my opinion, he either has a big hand (hearts or a boat/set most likely), or he's empty.
Up to you if you think he's strong, or he's bluffing. The end game is so situational.
Personally, I push pre flop.
Posted Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:24 pm GMT by Ciso_B
Q 9 ...... runner runner flush. I hadn't planned on check/calling all in there tbh but I was asking myself Why he would put me all in. In my head he had runnered the flush or had nothing . Even 2-2 He would raise from the button in a short handed game.AND even with turn flush draw he could realy take the free card.
Afterwards I said pushing the turn would have been a stronger move, but hindsight is like that.
Even though I busted out this hand. I am quite happy that I can go with my conviction like that, alot of the time I make a read and go with it I am close to right, this time I was wrong but I went with it still despite the fact it was late on and money is at stake.
3rd place and £1,190 was the reward....2 1sts in succession would have been a feat and a half though. Bah.
Posted Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:14 pm GMT by kompis
i cant see any reason not to push all in preflop here.. or attempt a go and go. there is more than enough in the pot to make it worth taking down and you have less than 10bbs. the sb is tight so u dont have to worry bout him... depending on what range u have the chip leader on checking could be a v poor play. | Quote: | | Even 2-2 He would raise from the button in a short handed game. |
so you clearly put the chippy on a wide range ... a go and go ( raise most your chips pre then push the flop no matter what) or an all in pre with the sqeeze effect... A5 which is prolly ahead of him? with blinds this big and your stack its gambling time, seems like u still trying to outplay... i think the whole hand was played badly by you, preflop you played like a pussy.. then u check called all the way... sure u were ahead but to be fair .. he could have easily paired up on the turn as u didnt really have a read on him at all.
Posted Sat Feb 24, 2007 11:04 pm GMT by Ciso_B
The reason not to push in pre flop was for value if I hit my ace. But I agree generally pushing in pre flop is the best move in this situation. I just chose not to this time, I felt I did have a read on my opponent - but on river when the heart falls it's probably time to give it up.Check Raising the turn all in was what I was gonna do then just called which is bad oop. Fair points.
Posted Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:04 am GMT by General Sal
| Ciso_B wrote: | Hey , this is a hand from live play today.
3 people left
Ciso - 115,000
Chip Leader - 475,000 (roughly)
Villain- 160,000 (tight player)
Blinds are 6,000/12,000
Chip leader limps in, sb calls I check with A 5 . I decided to check simply cos I felt the chip leader would call with whatever he limped in with and I also though itd be a good oppurtunity to win chips if an Ace fell since I checked. Flop came K 2 3 .Check,Check,Check. Turn 6 . Check,Check, Chip leader bets 25,000. He was playing pretty standard , I felt like he couldnt have much of anything seen we checked both streets and took a shot So I just called feeling like I had the better hand here.
River 3 .....I dwelled about pushing here but instead decided to check encase he had the flush. He put me all in at this stage at which point I was seriously considering a call. Problem is , He hadnt showed down any bluffs on FT and had ran extremely lucky up till now. I eventually called without really studying him enough, factoring in that if I folded I would be v short stacked and left with little chance and if I was right I would be in with a good shot of winning.
Bear in mind, I was not up for doing any deals and prizes were £2,300....£1590.....£1,190.
Is there any way I can be ahead? Or is it a really bad call at a crucial point in time? Opinions welcome. |
You know, I respect your play and well... I'm thinking... why didn't you move in on the flop? If he had KQ, he surely would've raised. These blinds are kind of high... but, it's tough I know when it's down to 3. Let the big stack beat the other guy up, right?
Posted Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:05 am GMT by kompis
Checking preflop for value if u hit the ace is all well and good, but this means you have to actually hit the ace... and if you dont then you almost have to give up on the hand if any resistance is shown at least by the sb.
I dont think its wise to do this type of play when your stack is 10bbs or less. Your A5 goes from a legitimate hand preflop into total rags when the flop misses and you are oop against the chippy.
Turns out you didnt hit the A so the reason you checked the A5 has now been thwarted.... then you proceed to call off all your chips with no pair....
Your play wasn't mindless or even fishy as you seemed to have a good idea you were still ahead. BUT i think you cut yourself down late on this time. Fancy play syndrome i guess. On final table with 3 left and your stack; you have to go with standard tournament theory which really does ask for a push preflop, or a raise then push on the flop. This type of value move should be reserved for when u have chips to mess around with...
When your stack is weak like this there is far more value in simply pushing all in - you win if they fold and you mentioned the chippy was likely to call anything he limped, so you win if you manage to hold up as a slight fave with the A5.
Posted Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:31 am GMT by snoogins47
Depending on how tight his limping range is, assuming he'll almost always call a push, we might not even be ahead preflop. I think we could argue between checking and pushing PF for days without coming to a good conclusion. I think if the SB folded I'd lean toward checking, but this hand is just good enough to get us nice and totally confused 3handed when we don't flop an ace.
I think our hero needs to bet the flop though. Folding the turn is obviously no good, but I do think you were probably right that a check-raise is better than a flat call. After the check-call, I can't really see calling the river bet though, as I think our call on the turn shuts down pure bluffs a good chunk of the time. He's firing away some of the time, I'm sure, but he's gotta expect given the action that you're going to be calling on the river pretty frequently. Of course it's all read dependent, you were there, I wasn't, etc.... you know the drill.
Posted Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:11 am GMT by kompis
I am assuming his limping range is quite loose becasue ciso said "he'd have raised even 22 preflop from the button" thus inferring that he would raise most decent starting hands if 22 is the benchmark
Posted Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:05 am GMT by Ciso_B
I made a few errors this hand- I could riase all in pre flop, I could check raise the turn, I could fold the river.
Its a crucial point in the tourney, I think I was a tad frustrated at one or 2 things that werent going to plan. I think Check raising all in on the turn is my strongest move throughout cos I dont risk the all in before the flop, I sensed weakness on the turn (correctly) and should have acted more suitably.
Thanks for the analysis. Error(s) made on my last hand here,the conviction in my read is still encouraging though.
Posted Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:37 am GMT by General Sal
| Ciso_B wrote: | I made a few errors this hand- I could riase all in pre flop, I could check raise the turn, I could fold the river.
Its a crucial point in the tourney, I think I was a tad frustrated at one or 2 things that werent going to plan. I think Check raising all in on the turn is my strongest move throughout cos I dont risk the all in before the flop, I sensed weakness on the turn (correctly) and should have acted more suitably.
Thanks for the analysis. Error(s) made on my last hand here,the conviction in my read is still encouraging though. |
I don't know if check-raise on the turn would've made him fold. He was on a flush draw on the turn, right? He can't put you on a king after you checked the flop. So, he may think he has the 2:1 overcardflushdraw underdog hand... He bet $25,000 on the turn... and the pot has 24K preflop. You end up moving in for your last $90K... He only has to call $65K to win $50K... well, maybe he might fold in this spot. I think a push on the flop is the better move.
Posted Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:12 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Where's the overcall?
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