Posted Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:03 am GMT by odlozilik
Stage #586798717: Holdem No Limit $1 - 2007-02-26 00:13:45 (ET)
Table: MOLINE (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 5 - CARIBSOUL ($130.85 in chips)
Seat 6 - LEVIHENDRIX ($102.85 in chips)
Seat 1 - ODLOZILIK ($73.63 in chips)
Seat 2 - AROCKETT ($73.27 in chips)
Seat 3 - DIRETHREAT ($114.17 in chips)
Seat 4 - MADS1011 ($40 in chips)
LEVIHENDRIX - Posts small blind $0.50
ODLOZILIK - Posts big blind $1
MADS1011 - Posts $1
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to ODLOZILIK  
AROCKETT - Folds
DIRETHREAT - Folds
MADS1011 - Checks
CARIBSOUL - Calls $1
LEVIHENDRIX - Calls $0.50
ODLOZILIK - Checks
*** FLOP ***   
LEVIHENDRIX - Checks
ODLOZILIK - Bets $1
MADS1011 - Folds
CARIBSOUL - Raises $2 to $2
LEVIHENDRIX - Calls $2
ODLOZILIK - Calls $1
*** TURN *** 
LEVIHENDRIX - Checks
ODLOZILIK - Checks
CARIBSOUL - Bets $5
LEVIHENDRIX - Calls $5
ODLOZILIK - Raises $15 to $15
CARIBSOUL - Raises $25 to $30
LEVIHENDRIX - Folds
ODLOZILIK - ??
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Posted Wed Feb 28, 2007 10:19 am GMT by Dave B
I would guess that you are chopping here, unless the villian has it in him to slowplay a premium hand in a 6 handed game.
I likely push back all in and go broke against AJ spades when he rivers a flush.
Posted Wed Feb 28, 2007 2:44 pm GMT by vyni
I can't see where we'ld even think about a fold here unless we believed he made a boat (and I'ld likely pay to see it anyways). I'ld be comfortable with a push here. If he slow played AA, KK, AQ, or KQ... good job, ya got me. If he's slow playing AK or getting aggressive with an AX, well it's going to feel good doubling up on him. imho
Posted Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:10 pm GMT by Phil14312
Dave, the A  is already on the board. There really isn't a flush draw out there that we could be up against that isn't freerolling us (i.e. J  T ). I call, it looks like he has trips and a gutshot, probably QJ or QT.
Posted Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:20 pm GMT by jeffonline
My thoughts, I think we all agree he has some part of this. To back door his boat he needed a premium hand like AA KK, that doesn’t seem likely the way it was played. He may have a QX that would give him trips on the flop, QK seems the most plausible, I would have slow played a boat on the flop hoping that someone would catch up, Is the A the catch up card the villain needed you to get. It just seems so to me. I can’t make up my mind so with $55 in the pot $15 to call, I going to call and reassess on the river. Is this cop out or what.
Posted Wed Feb 28, 2007 9:45 pm GMT by snoogins47
I, uh, fold. Our villain minraised the flop, bet $5 on the turn, and min-re-raised our turn check-raise, with a caller in between. Are we really up against, say, JQ here often enough to not run screaming from this hand? Bear in mind that the likely times we're behind, well, our equity isn't exactly very nice. Without any specific reads, I have to imagine we're behind a solid majority of the time. And with no outs when we're behind, and plenty of ways to lose when we're ahead, the situation just gets worse.
I'm kinda surprised (read as: ) that everybody is saying "You have to go busto here." Really? Really?
Posted Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:15 pm GMT by Jauron
Does CARIBSOUL just limp in with AK, AQ or KQ? Could he limp with a big pair?
I hate calling here, we check raised and he still reraised us. I'm feeling like at best it's a chop and we are probably beat. Would Qx really keep raising?
In order to call I'd have to think caribsoul is capable of making this move with plenty of hands I can beat or incapable of limping on the button with the hands that beat us now.
Posted Thu Mar 01, 2007 12:11 am GMT by Phil14312
Would he limp in from the button with KQ? I dunno. I don't see much of it though.
Posted Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:21 am GMT by odlozilik
Thanks everybody for your analyses, I really appreciate them. Let's see 1 step forwards:
*** TURN ***
LEVIHENDRIX - Checks
ODLOZILIK - Checks
CARIBSOUL - Bets $5
LEVIHENDRIX - Calls $5
ODLOZILIK - Raises $15 to $15
CARIBSOUL - Raises $25 to $30
LEVIHENDRIX - Folds
ODLOZILIK - Calls $15
*** RIVER *** 
ODLOZILIK - Bets $10
CARIBSOUL - Raises $41 to $41
ODLOZILIK - ??
Did I have to bet more? Should I call?
Posted Thu Mar 01, 2007 5:04 am GMT by jeffonline
Welcome to the river, it cost another $31 to play, offering you 4/1 on your money and don’t you just love that last card, now we have the boat and the flush to think about, any hope of the villain slowing down has gone. The river flush card did not slow him down and if anything we have played this more like a drawing hand than he has, I can’t get away from my original call, he got his boat on the flop, but because I can be wrong 3 out of 4 times and still be ahead in this situation with these odd at the cut –off, I call.
Posted Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:18 am GMT by fiezk
| Phil14312 wrote: | | Would he limp in from the button with KQ? I dunno. I don't see much of it though. |
I don't know what would surprise me more, the fact that villain limped in with AQ, KQ, KK, AA, QQ or that he would give us this much action with merely Qx.
Given that we've established that villain is a moron, either way. I call the river expecting to lose quite often.
Posted Thu Mar 01, 2007 10:53 am GMT by witt10s
A couple of things:
- Because of pf action your straight is generally good here, but if you encounter heavy action on the turn, you are generally a little ahead or way behind/drawing dead. I like C/R on turn, but I go to ~22ish as there are many rivers you don't like to see with 2 opponents still hanging around.
- I think that when you C/R this turn you are defining your hand as "JT or better." If you are reraised, someone is saying "I see your range of hands, but I'm reraising you anyway." I don't think draws shove this turn on you (little fold equity + possibly drawing dead), so a villain reraise indicates a monster hand and you can confidently get away from your straight. As played, look at size of villain's reraise. He's not exactly trying to push you out of the pot.
- On the river, your bet of 10 into a pot of ~75? is awfully weak IMO.
I guess you are doing this to block, but its such a small bet that villain should see through this (what else would you bet 10 with here? surely not a monster).
He probably just calls here with the straight (which he may have checked behind anyways), but could conceivably now raise you with the flush (as you obviously don't have the boat).
As played, you have put in over half your stack and are now getting decent odds to call his raise. Spades are unlikely for villain so if you thought you were ahead on the turn (which is why you called villain's turn reraise correct?) you pretty much have to call him down here.
Maybe I am giving villain too much credit here but I think you priced yourself in for a beating.
Posted Thu Mar 01, 2007 2:32 pm GMT by vyni
Find myself very worried about Kx spades now: we certainly didn't want a spade or a diamond on the river but we have to deal with it now.
Can't say his river raise concerns me too much though here: our river bet, as suggested above, was so weak that we look scared of the river (which we are, but we didn't want to make it so obvious) and villain almost has to represent the flush. Our bet there told him that he could probably get us to fold. Up to the river its been min raises, now he barks back with what our bet should have been, at the least, to begin with.
I can't confidently say that we shouldn't fold, but I wouldn't. If he sucked out on me here, well I'm going to pay to see it.
Posted Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:55 pm GMT by TheSalche
This hand makes me wanna throw up in a lot of ways.
Please fold the turn ... please please please ... is he really min-raising with just three queens here? On the river you tried to make a blocking bet it didn't work, so dear God fold again! There is no way a thinking person ever raises this river with less than a flush. If they do, then put notes on em.
Posted Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:17 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I am totally with Snoogins and Salche here. Although I might not fold every time, when I get reraised on that turn I'd at least give folding some serious consideration.
I think reasoning along the lines of "he can't have AQ or KQ because he didn't raise preflop" is incorrect. Players are more than capable of limping with these hands, especially offsuit, if they don't want to play a big pot right away. Hell, lately I've even seen players limping KK or AA from LP, either hoping for a raise behind them or just looking to add in some deception. The lack of a preflop raise (evidence that he doesn't have a boat) is vastly outweighed by his ultra-strong flop and turn bets (evidence that he DOES have a boat).
In any case, I don't think calling is an option on the turn, because are you really going to fold the river most of the time? Push or fold, but I agree with what snoogins said. you do not have to go broke here, seriously. A straight is a very good hand, but when the bets get big on the later streets and players are representing a hand that has you beat, they often do in fact have you beat. What makes it worse is that we have no outs against a better hand. Again, could he 3-bet with a naked queen on THIS board? Unless I have a reason to think this player is a live one, I might just give him the benefit of the doubt and reluctantly fold. Again, not always, but I don't think even most $100 NL players push this hard with naked trips on such a scary board.
Posted Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:09 am GMT by odlozilik
Thanks guys again, I think it's time to post the result. Well, I have to say I felt I am beat, when got reraised on the turn, but I didn't listen to my intuition (hard to fold this hand, and I would probably never know was I ahead or not, lol).
*** RIVER ***
ODLOZILIK - Bets $10
CARIBSOUL - Raises $41 to $41
ODLOZILIK - All-In $30.63
CARIBSOUL - returned ($0.37) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CARIBSOUL - Shows   (Full house, queens full of kings)
ODLOZILIK - Shows (Straight, ten to ace)
CARIBSOUL Collects $153.26 from main pot
Posted Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:39 am GMT by snoogins47
| fiezk wrote: | | Phil14312 wrote: | | Would he limp in from the button with KQ? I dunno. I don't see much of it though. |
I don't know what would surprise me more, the fact that villain limped in with AQ, KQ, KK, AA, QQ or that he would give us this much action with merely Qx.
Given that we've established that villain is a moron, either way. I call the river expecting to lose quite often. |
Just for the record, playing naked trips the way villain has played this hand is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY worse than limping AQ, KQ, or a big pair from the button. It's not even anywhere near remotely close. I hope I used enough 'way's to get my point across.
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