Posted Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:03 pm GMT by wavenoob
This is a hand that i have no idea how to play. How do you guys play suited connectors that aren't face cards. I always fold these and that might be right what do you guys do when you get suited card like 5-7 4-5 6-7?
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Posted Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:10 pm GMT by PLOCH
| wavenoob wrote: | | This is a hand that i have no idea how to play. How do you guys play suited connectors that aren't face cards. I always fold these and that might be right what do you guys do when you get suited card like 5-7 4-5 6-7? |
If I'm in late position and nobody raises I'll limp in and see if I can catch something.
Posted Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:30 pm GMT by exit music
Folding is always good
Posted Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:11 pm GMT by MrDarling
I agree, when you are not sure how to play a hand, folding it is the way to go.
When your post flop game improve you can start seeing more flops. Problems with suited connectors that they very rarely hit the flop. You might hit a good draw, but you need to be pretty good post flop to play good draws.
Posted Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:24 pm GMT by jeffonline
As in most poker situations there are so many variables, Limit, No Limit, position, blinds, other players, stack size, table numbers etc. In this post I am referring to NL ring games with more than 6 players. First you must understand what you are trying to achieve with suited connectors. They will cost a lot to play them over time so you want to win a big pot when they hit, playing suited connector against tight players may not be the correct play because they won’t reward you enough, but against loose players they are big buck earners. They are not the type of hand you want to invest a lot of money in pre-flop, so from most positions you limp, you may choose to call small raises no more than 5% of your stack. You are looking to hit the flop with better than a pair eg: 2 pair, trips, open ended flush draw or sta8 draw, Ideally top pair open ended flush stra8 draw. Your post flop play is now important, always keep in mind that the bottom end of a stra8 is not as good as the top end, a flush if made may not be the highest flush out there. If you miss fold, as position, number of players, if the pot is raised, stack size, opponents are all important in your post flop play, you may wish to ask the Forum how to play open ended stra8 and flush draws post flop from various positions.
Posted Sun Mar 18, 2007 9:50 pm GMT by shorn7
For NL ONLY:
Fold in EP most of the time. These hands won't be profitable enough even when you hit them to warrant playing them up front.
In MP, with limpers or a raise, call or fold. Call with limpers only and sometimes when it is raised, but pay attention to the stack size of the raiser and know how he plays overpairs and top pair. You want an opponent that will overplay when you flop top pair or a big draw. In terms of stack sizes, you want at least 20-1 x the current bet as your available total win.
In LP, mostly call witht hese hands, but ocassionally raise with them. This is a semi-bluff raise and one that can help to disguise your hand and potentially win you a pot you otherwise wouldn't. Since your raise "represents" big cards, you can bluff at certain flops as well as bet the one's that you really do hit.
This is just a quick primer on these hands, so you need to figure out for your self the best way to play them for your style.
Good luck.
Posted Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:05 am GMT by wavenoob
Thanks for the advise.
Posted Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:33 am GMT by MasterShake
In a no limit tournament (especially early on when there's still room to play and the stack sizes aren't too far apart) I will fold in early position, call about half the time in middle position if there are two or more limpers before me, and call in late position with two or more limpers behind me and raise 50-75% of the time if nobody has called behind me.
But there are also variables to take into account. How loose/tight are the limpers? How loose/tight are the players to act after me? Do the blinds defend a lot to a late position raise? Is there a maniac that likes raise a lot when there are a bunch of limpers?
Posted Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:56 pm GMT by jimmer
Before playing this hand, I like to consider two key factors.
1.My position
2.My table image.
If I'm playing really tight and in late position, I may even raise with 78, 89 etc.
This is pretty rare, but i can do it.
I do not play this hand in early position, nor against players who act after me and are known to be aggressive.
Posted Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:55 pm GMT by Muck
How many players are in the hand is something I considering too.
Since a flush or straight will usually hold up against a larger field.
Posted Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:00 pm GMT by Moon_Child
for nl:
suited connectors are hands which are very weak heads up, but are great in multiway pots because you can hit big and get paid off for it.
like everyone has said, you want to call in late position... you usually want to limp in these situations and hope to flop a good hand such as a massive draw, 2 pair or trips... anything less i would usually fold, unless i have odds to call and see the turn.
i like to limp with these hands, but if the pot is raised and there are several callers, i would most likely call too in LP.
btw, this is for 8-10 man, i usually fold my SC's when i play 6 handed.
also, SC's are good hands in multi-way pot which has been raised because everyone can be holding high cards and a guy with 4-5s might call and flop J44... no one puts that person on a 4 and you can get paid off... especially if he has like QQ, KK, AA or even AJ. And i don't like to play anything lower than 45s and anything > JTs...
QJs, i dont like, gets me into trouble
and A2s is a hand i dont value in cash games
these hands puts me in tough decision all the time and if i get a nut flush draw, i'm still chasing and if i dont hit, it cost a lot, but those should be discussed for implied odds. ^^
Posted Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:33 pm GMT by tame_deuces
NL:
Suited connectors/PPs are hands you can play pretty much however you want to play them. You can raise 'em, isolate with them, call a raise with them, limp for multi, fold them and all kinds of things. They are usually extremely easy to play after the flop and they'll rarely leave you wondering where you are at.
Stacksizes, potsizes and how villain plays should probably steer your play far more with SCs than generalized rules.
If I'd give a tip for SCs, I'd tell you to think about what bottom two pair in limped pots beats and proceed accordingly, but beyond that I think they play easy.
FL:
For FL you can usually just toss them if you're first in the pot unless its LP and you wanna raise for a blindsteal. I usually also raise with them in FL if someone has posted dead blinds (joined the game while not on the BB). Can be ok to see a big multiway pot with them if given the chance.
Posted Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:34 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Ah, a topic near and dear to me; I love suited connectors, 54s all the way up, even the gapped connectors like 75s on up. Things you need to consider when playing these hands:
1. How comfortable are you post flop? This is a big one, because it will determine how often you can play these hands.
2. Position. Obviously position is always important, moreso for these hands because they frequently flop big draws, and you would like to be able to buy free cards or assume other positional advantages when you can.
3. Image. If you're seen as loose, you can sometimes expect more resistance, but you may win a lot more money when you hit a hand. If you're seen as tight, these hands are great curveballs to throw opponents, because they may not think a flop like 6-8-T is all that dangerous to someone who likely has high cards.
4. Stack sizes. For these hands to be most profitable, both you and your opponents should have largish stacks, not small stacks. With these types of hands, often you want to make minimal investments on the early streets to win large pots on later streets; you can really only make that happen with moderate-to-deep stacks.
5. Opponents. A big concern. These hands play better against less aggressive opponents who are more likely to let you control the betting.
I wish I could give a lot of specific guidelines, but that's not really my Poker Philosophy these days where deep-stacked No Limit is concerned. I'll try to edit in some more general thoughts on these hands in a bit.
Edits: Ok, this deals specifically with No Limit.
From Early Position: unless the game is passive, you should probably fold unless you have a very good feel for both the table and your opponents. Limping is probably ok with some of the stronger connectors like JTs, T9s, etc, but you probably ought to stay away from the gap connectors... you can lose a lot of money like I have if you over-commit yourself in early position. If limping will likely generate some limping action behind you, that's better, because a limped multiway pot is very good for your hand. The nightmare situation is to limp in and have the next guy raise you, and everyone behind fold. Most of the time, if you get raised big here, you should usually fold unless you think your opponent is liable to be bluffed on a later street. Here's a hint: to make suited connectors profitable from EP, you must often be willing to bluff a later street if you feel an opponent missed the flop, because picking up those pots will negate your positional disadvantage a little bit. In any case, I would not a call a raise from someone before me in EP, just because the risk of getting sandwiched is too great. So just to sum up, you should only play suited connectors from early positions if:
1. Limping is likely to encourage limping behind you and discourage a raise behind you.
2. You are unlikely to be raised from someone in a later position.
3. You have a good grasp of your opponents' abilities and the general "feel" of the table.
In Middle Position: You have a little more information in middle position, since you know what the EP guys have done and you will have to OPEN the pot less frequently. I would still be cautious about calling a raise here, unless two conditions apply: one, the raiser is someone you have good control over, and two, the people behind you are unlikely to reraise. But if one or two people have limped, limping is probably ok here. If you're first to open the pot, I'd generally stick to most of the same guidelines as early position, but you can probably add the majority of no-gap connectors and some of the better one-gap connectors. Occasionally, and especially in tournaments, if you are first to open the pots, it's ok to come in for a raise to help add deception to your play and make it more likely you can steal the blinds or win with a continuation bet on the flop. Again, be very careful if someone raises you from a superior position--but, say that two people have limped and you limp, only to have the button raise to 4.5x the BB behind you. If the other limpers call, certainly you can call because you're playing a slightly bigger pot, but it's now both multiway and you have good RELATIVE position on the raiser (but as usual, you should both have fairly deep stacks if you're going to make this investment).
In Late Position: Now we're talking. Now our options are wide open. For a truly skilled player on the right table, he can probably play with almost any two cards, but obviously suited connectors are better than average hands, especially in position. If a few people have limped in, limping behind is often a good idea. And especially from the button, you don't now mind playing against a small raise (but if someone raises more the 4x the BB, I'd be wary of calling unless you're both very deep stacked). From late position, your options on the flop will be greater; you can buy free cards, you can bluff more liberally, and you can slowplay more effectively if you flop big. Position is so strong that if a few people have limped before you, I'd say it's a mistake NOT to play suited connectors, and even some of the one- and even two-gappers, simply because if you get a good flop you will have a LOT of room to maneuver. Playing in late position is such a complex topic that I really don't want to get into it too much, but needless to say, this is the ideal place to play your suited connectors. But suppose you're opening the pot, or only one player has limped: should you consider raising? I would say yes, especially in tournaments, if for no other reason than to add deception to your play when you have a good feel of your opponents. Of course, you should also consider one of Sklansky's Principles: Don't turn AQ into 72. When you raise with some more marginal hands, you put yourself in a really bad place when you get reraised. With deep stacks, limping, even on the button, will frequently be a fine play. Raising is usually better if you need to have a shot to steal the blinds or take control of the hand.
From the blinds: unless the pot is liable to be multiway, be wary of calling raises out of position, because you will be at a significant disadvantage the rest of the hand. However, if you have to defend your blind, these aren't bad hands to do it with, because a lot of flops can help you, and most of the time you hit anything better than bottom or middle pair, you usually have a pretty good holding. Against an aggressive player raising from a late position, calling here is often ok if you can take control of the flop depending on the texture. But before you play from the blinds, ask yourself the following:
1. If I miss the flop, will I have a decent shot of bluffing this guy?
2. If I check to this guy on the flop, how likely is he to bet? If he bets, how much?
Obviously, if someone is likely to make big continuation bets or be unlikely to get bluffed, you ought to throw away these hands and just save the money.
So that covers about 1% of what you need to know about suited connectors... I wish No Limit had more specific guidelines, but there are so many situational factors I don't believe any literature can truly do the complexity of the game justice.
On final tip: if you're going to play suited connectors, you MUST be the type of person who will not overvalue a pair. You are NOT playing these hands to flop top pair. These hands have value by making deceptive two pair or trips against a hand like an overpair or AK, or by flopping monster hands like straights, or by flopping good draws like straight draws, flush draws, or even monster hands like straight + flush draw or pair + flush draw.
Posted Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:43 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Oops. Ignore this post.
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:26 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
This is how you play SC in EP
PokerStars Game #9048469284: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2007/03/23 - 14:20:07 (ET)
Table 'Martir' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: 507Kowboy ($105.40 in chips)
Seat 2: tlatoani ($52.70 in chips)
Seat 3: churchil ($65.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Pandochat ($86.10 in chips)
Seat 5: makapuu99 ($71.35 in chips)
Seat 6: Pumuckel1 ($177.45 in chips)
Seat 8: Mortal420 ($184.05 in chips)
Seat 9: lazydog1003 ($96 in chips)
makapuu99: posts small blind $0.50
Pumuckel1: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Mortal420  
Mortal420: raises $2 to $3
lazydog1003: folds
507Kowboy: folds
tlatoani: folds
churchil: calls $3
Pandochat: calls $3
makapuu99: calls $2.50
Pumuckel1: folds
*** FLOP ***   
makapuu99: checks
Mortal420: bets $6
churchil: folds
Pandochat: folds
makapuu99: raises $9 to $15
Mortal420: raises $166.05 to $181.05 and is all-in
makapuu99: calls $53.35 and is all-in
*** TURN *** 
*** RIVER *** 
*** SHOW DOWN ***
makapuu99: shows   (two pair, Eights and Threes)
Mortal420: shows (three of a kind, Threes)
Mortal420 collected $146.70 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $149.70 | Rake $3
Board
Seat 1: 507Kowboy folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: tlatoani folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: churchil folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Pandochat (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: makapuu99 (small blind) showed and lost with two pair, Eights and Threes
Seat 6: Pumuckel1 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: Mortal420 showed and won ($146.70) with three of a kind, Threes
Seat 9: lazydog1003 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:12 pm GMT by Muck
I don't really get this hand.
Yes it's a good example of mixing up your play for concealment value but the value wasn't needed.
What if Mortal420 had say AA or KK as his better pattern suggests. This would have been a very standard pot take down to someone who radically overvalues medium PPs.
If the flop came 33A and makapuu99 busted with AK that would be a nicer illustration but here I just keep thinking why is he calling? Unless he's seen this kind of big over bet when Mortal420 missed with something like AK.
No reflection on anyone, I'm just they wont all be as free with there money as this guy.
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:17 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
The reason I knew he would call that cause I saw him twice before call with a over pair. The flop was miracle and obviously he didnt know what hit him. The all in im sure threw him off
Posted Sat Mar 24, 2007 4:40 am GMT by MrDarling
Raising with a 2 gaper SC from UTG it a little more then mixing it up. Miracle flop and a real fish villain. You so much easier holding here a higher over pair then you are AK..
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2007 3:03 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
| MrDarling wrote: | | Raising with a 2 gaper SC from UTG it a little more then mixing it up. Miracle flop and a real fish villain. You so much easier holding here a higher over pair then you are AK.. |
I like to keep em guessing 
|
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