Poor results playing online |
|
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:18 am GMT by Eusebio
Hi!
First of all: this shouldnt be a "internet is rigged"-topic 
How come that i am winning when I play live (.25/.50 in Homegames/ 1/2 in cardrooms) and i suck online, playing the microstakes?
I dont think that onlineplayers play much better than they do live, but what are the reasons??
I am playing since one year and I never cashed out ... even worse, after every deposit I keep losing and losing... I dont pay much attention to tells, when playing live, so that cant be the point...
I tried to play TAG, LAG... nothing works! Played MTT, sīnīg, and every time i thought: ok, now its going the right way... down again...
I know that I am probably still a fish(but still better than 95% of the microstakesplayers), but how come that the difference between online and live is so huge?
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:36 am GMT by MrDarling
You're probably over playing.
In micro stakes it is much harder to bluff. It is much harder to make sophisticated play that good play can see.
The trick is to usually bet your good hand and fold the bad hand. Play ABC poker and you should be doing much better.
FWIW took me 6 month to stop loosing and 2 more month to show profit. Though I now make most money in S&G I can finish most cash session a little up.
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:05 am GMT by Eusebio
I read much of you, Mr Darling, and I think we have a pretty similar way to analyze, and think about, the game.
One point is... i am getting outdrawn way to often and the funny thing is i am probably overbetting almost any hand (bet pot, to make them fold, because when bet just 2/3 or 3/4 I def. get more caller).
I know, i know... in the long run, you should be able to get a profit from those kind of hands, but they do not...  its that easy
I rarely bluff online, since some callingstation will always set you up... another thing is the continuation bet
I also tried every single strategy of all the books I have read... no success 
Tried the 6 handed sngīs mixing it 5.50 and 11... Swings are huge...
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:03 am GMT by supafrey
| Quote: | | I also tried every single strategy of all the books I have read |
I lol'ed.
There's a significant diff between live and online in terms of skill, like i've said before.
But you're really just overplaying yourself.
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:38 am GMT by Ensano
how many hands have you played online?
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:57 am GMT by Eusebio
Well, i dont have exact figures, but lets say I play 3-4 hours every second day, make it an hour on average... 60 hands per hour, that should be about 20k-25k hands
Reading books can probably save you a lot of time and money, especially time, because I dont have to learn it the long and hard way, that eg. KJ isnt that much of a hand and if you say books are bad, then whats with all the forums and socalled strategyguidelines?
So with overplay you mean, that I should just play basic, solid poker!?
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:10 am GMT by MrDarling
Yeah , play solid poker.
No need to over bet. Low levels player will call all their chips in a 1BB pot on a draw. So simply out price them . It means every time they call you make money. Even if you lose the hand.
I usually play 3-4 S&g and have 1 ring game open. That means I really only play monsters OOP or good hand in position (and sometimes steal attempts from late) Most low levels players do not notice you play 1 hand in hour and will still call you UTG 4XBB raise with their normal crap. Cool.
I use to try to make every one fold. Now I want them to call.
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:17 am GMT by MrDarling
About books.
Bought and read Doyle Super System 1. Excellent book but you most follow his advice and NOT use any of his tricks. Since he says, this are only good against good players. Against bad players they simply do not work.
Read Sklansky small stakes hold'em - though its a limit book. Its does cover a lot of low limit players tendency and does explain some stuff about odds and outs that I haven't thought about. (for example, just realized that you have better chance to improve your hand against TPTK with 3rd pair then with a low cards gut shut)
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:31 am GMT by tame_deuces
You can play in alot of weird ways, but don't overthink unknown opponents when you play low stakes online poker. You can safely assume the majority of decisions will be simple ones.
The common error is to think an opponent knows what you know and plays like you do and adjust accordingly, which will lead you into a lot of bad things.
And reading books might be good, but don't read books to learn strategies, read them to understand poker concepts and why a strategy might work.
(Well, that last paragraph might be an overstatement as I don't think you'll need great poker understanding is needed to beat low stakes online. But you'll become a better player if nothing else.)
And maybe you're only having a bad run.
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:05 am GMT by supafrey
If you were doing every strategy in every poker book you've read you'd be rich by now. There is no way you are play Sklansky-like poker 100% of the time and losing to low stakes online players.
Just simplify. Bet when you think you're going to win the hand. Fold when you don't.
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:19 pm GMT by exit music
I've found online poker to be a lot more difficult for a couple reasons. You play a lot more hands, which means any/every leak in your game will be compounded, so if you aren't good, you will be spewing chips in every direction.
Dumb Live players have a lot less information handed to them, such as pot size and stack size. Most live players I play with don't give a shit about their stack or the pot, they'll happily call a $35 bet with a $50 stack thinking they are getting good odds on their straight draw because they didn't have to go all-in.
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:46 pm GMT by Moon_Child
read books or just play tight aggressive and wait for hands... maybe that'll help you...
since micro stakes players are loose, u can wait for a hand, hit it and get paid off... hope not to get sucked out.
Posted Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:47 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| Eusebio wrote: |
I know that I am probably still a fish(but still better than 95% of the microstakesplayers) |
Tell me what is wrong with that statement.
If you want to get better you have to first accept the fact that you suck and are losing money. Then, play simple poker.
Keep pots small. If you think you're ahead, bet. Don't trap yourself into hands where the only hands that will play with you, are beating you. If you have top pair, you don't want to drive out shitty hands, you want them to stay in with you. Bet small. Don't bet huge ammounts trying to "get the bad hands to fold." Don't push your stack in with top pair if only a set will call you. Cause eventually someone will have that set, and it won't just be bad luck. It'll be your bad play setting yourself up for losing more money.
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:28 am GMT by Eusebio
of course i didnt mean it literally, when i said i tried every stratgy...
| Quote: | | The common error is to think an opponent knows what you know and plays like you do and adjust accordingly, which will lead you into a lot of bad things. |
Thats probably it...
One way out of this, could be playing higher limits, but i guess thats a dangerous way. Or at least a question of the BR.
| Quote: | | they'll happily call a $35 bet with a $50 stack thinking they are getting good odds |
Most of the players i play, dont even know how to write odds... if they have a straightdraw, they will call everybet
| Quote: | | Tell me what is wrong with that statement. |
I know, jefecaminador, that this might sound like a contradiction... i am losing, but i think that i am better than everybody. I always try to see things how they really are, try to be honest to myself, so I know I suck  but if i am going through the handhistory and see what these guys are doing, I can see, by the decisions that they are making, that they suck even more than i do.
Thought about the whole thing yesterday and I think that the main difference is that live I get more from my winners and lose less with my losers...
I guess i will try it MrDarlings way... having a ringgame and waiting for the bighands, while playing some sngīs
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:55 am GMT by MrDarling
| Eusebio wrote: | ...One way out of this, could be playing higher limits, but i guess thats a dangerous way. Or at least a question of the BR.
|
I guess we all thought that while we were losing in micro limits. Hell, I know I used to .
Now I realize how wrong it is. I'm losing to bad player so I need to go play against better players.
Now read that again and see if that make any sense to you.
My main mistake is not knowing when and how to value bet. I used to be happy when everyone fold when I had a decent hand. Now I want them to chase their draws. Sure, they out drawn a couple of times. But every time they chase they lose money. When they lose money, you make money. Its as simple as that.
Now I get value from my decent hand, fold my marginal hand to a resistance (Even though a lot of those times I am ahead - I realized I don't mind folding a 4XBB flop to a 20XBB raise if there are a lot of hands that can beat me)
I try not to chase without odds.
Still, haven't had a serious ring session in over a month, so am not sure I'm killing it. But at least I don't go broke when ever I sit in one (BTW, finally decided to make the move to $25NL and even sit with max buyin)
Now when I play I do S&G. More fun for me and so far great ROI.
Good luck. Stick with it.
just last piece of advise. I used to think I can kill higher level because I'm so much smarter then any one else (Seriously) after playing in FTOSP ME (actually even before) I realized I still know nothing about playing real poker. My ABC game is just about ok. Its going to take a lot more time to develop 3rd and 4th level thinking.
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:34 am GMT by supafrey
| Quote: | Now I realize how wrong it is. I'm losing to bad player so I need to go play against better players.
Now read that again and see if that make any sense to you. |
I've raised you well, my son.
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:17 am GMT by Moon_Child
don't get into a big pot without a big hand?
try that?
for the stakes lower than NL100, i don't think its necessary to get funky because the games are pretty fishy themselves...
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:08 pm GMT by MrDarling
| supafrey wrote: | | Quote: | Now I realize how wrong it is. I'm losing to bad player so I need to go play against better players.
Now read that again and see if that make any sense to you. |
I've raised you well, my son. |
Poker or internet etiquette ?
I think you'd say something like :
"lol @ playing higher levels"
Same bottom line but mine is a little more understandable.
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:11 pm GMT by tame_deuces
There IS a point to this, and it's one of those insanely cool, amusing and interesting points that sometimes pop up in poker.
'Bad' players may be an inherently different kind of thing pending on which type of poker you play.
The good ol' classic calling station might be a horrible player against a nit, but against a over-aggro TAG with low pot control and tilt issues his playstyle is probably completely perfect.
Also note that this TAG description fits most people who read a poker book and are now trying it out quite perfectly.
But the arch-typical full ring 50NL 4-tabling nit may be the doom of the same loose passive player, but against a mediocre-to-clever lag who thinks a buy-in is a reasonable pot-size his playstyle is absolutely awful.
So, inside all of this 'lol@playing good players' there is a small, quite cool lesson to learned.
To be truly good (well if you want to, because I don't think many people need to) at the poker table you have to adjust to the different types of player you'll face, for often these bad players who give us troubles are unwittingly making good plays against us. For the wrong reasons but still correct...and make no mistake, in many cases a good player should also make those same moves, only this time for the right reasons.
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:44 pm GMT by jeffonline
Such profound wisdom, do the majority of fish school in the micro stakes for protection against the poker sharks. How much can one shark consume in a night of rampage through the little fish in the micro stakes, my guess is not a lot, in fact you may find a little fish feeding frenzy.
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:02 am GMT by MrDarling
You know, I use to think that people like Supa will have just as much problems at low stakes as me. I'm not too sure any more.
On that other forum, someone suggested $100NL and up should drop down to micro levels, play a session TAG and then a session of LAG maniac , video it and that will show all us micro levels that TAG works better.
The one video I've seen, TAG broke even (actually he was a little behind) and LAG maniac was a couple of buyins ahead.
Sure most low levels will look you up with any pair, but often they will also look you up with A or even K high. They can't fold any pocket pair regards less of the board or the action...
I do agree that you need to adjust your play according to the players. But I think bad players, though there calling station attitude might work in a couple of hands. In the long run, they lose.
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:33 am GMT by supafrey
I am proud to say that I would absolutely destroy micro stakes, but that the amount of money I could win at higher stakes >>>> in absolute terms.
But seriously guys... if you're having trouble at .05/.1, move up and play against me instead. I fold more.
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2007 9:06 am GMT by tame_deuces
Well, bad players are bad players and good players are good players. I guess I'm just saying that a bad player can make the right play for the wrong reasons. So even though he is a net loser he might be winning against some playstyles.
Ofcourse beating higher stakes is much more difficult than playing lower stakes, and though maybe a high limit player could have some _small_ adjustment problems if going to lower stakes but I think it is safe that say that if he is a winning high stakes player he will _ofcourse_ crush lower stakes. The flaws of low stakes players are simply put amplified tenfold compared to that of 'bad' higher stakes players. They call in the wrong places, fold in the wrong places and bet in the wrong places.
I didn't mean to say anything else, if I came off as doing so. I was just pointing out a small and potentially funny point.
Posted Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:48 am GMT by crack
good players fold more so it's easier to play against them, you don't get the bad beats.
Right now I have finished messing around....
In small cash games you really don't need to be a great player to beat them. Open your eyes a bit and you may find the key is playing simple ABC poker.
You really don't need to make crazy plays or mix it up so you are not so predictable, at the lower games predictable poker works. Play the odds and overall you should be able to start making a profit at the smaller games.
Have a look online, you can get a preflop chart or something which I first did when I was learning to play limit holdem and it was brilliant.
You really just need to just master the basics and see how it goes. I once joked I could train my mum to beat the small cash games, but the more I think about it the more I think it's a valid statement.
Get yourself a decent book read forums, articles post hands and stick to a good bankroll management scheme and you should do alright.
|
|
