SNG Hand, Genius or Dumby.... |
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Posted Sun Mar 25, 2007 9:14 am GMT by Ciso_B
I loved the flop but turn when he throws out that raise it really bothered me, mainly the size of his riase. I narrowed his hands down to 6-6, Q-J but Jdxd is possible too. Think you lot gonna think I made a mistake here :
PokerStars Game #9079927193: Tournament #46154124, $55+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2007/03/25 - 10:05:01 (ET)
Table '46154124 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Menyook (1450 in chips)
Seat 3: Neab (1765 in chips)
Seat 4: Slick50 (1210 in chips)
Seat 5: Kuezolino (3480 in chips)
Seat 6: Gatsby777 (1705 in chips)
Seat 7: LIMPATIENT (2425 in chips)
Seat 9: amigo1975 (1465 in chips)
Menyook: posts small blind 25
Neab: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Neab  
Slick50: folds
Kuezolino: folds
Gatsby777: calls 50
LIMPATIENT: folds
amigo1975: folds
Menyook: calls 25
Neab: checks
*** FLOP ***   
Menyook: checks
Neab: bets 60
Gatsby777: calls 60
Menyook: folds
*** TURN *** 
Neab: bets 145
Gatsby777: raises 155 to 300
Neab said, "66 or QJ?"
Neab: folds
Gatsby777 collected 560 from pot
Gatsby777: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 560 | Rake 0
Board
Seat 1: Menyook (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Neab (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 4: Slick50 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Kuezolino folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Gatsby777 collected (560)
Seat 7: LIMPATIENT folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: amigo1975 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
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Posted Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:36 pm GMT by TheSalche
Dunno what he would be min-raising here besides a monster. If he's got the hands you're afraid of he's gonna make a good sized river bet, and the best card for you on the turn would be a 7, obv. unlikely.
Considering the stakes, and the blind levels, a fold is fine.
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:25 pm GMT by kompis
yeah cant see anything u beating here ciso, id fold here
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:36 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| kompis wrote: | | yeah cant see anything u beating here ciso, id fold here |
QFT.
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:08 am GMT by MrDarling
2 questions :
1. Isn't the flop bet on the small side? 60 into 150. less then half the pot. You're giving odds to the flush to draw.
wouldn't a AdJd or AdQx will play this the same as villain?
2. what does QFT stand for Quiet f*cking True?
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:42 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Quoted for truth.
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:34 am GMT by snoogins47
| MrDarling wrote: | 2 questions :
1. Isn't the flop bet on the small side? 60 into 150. less then half the pot. You're giving odds to the flush to draw. |
Flush draws are rare, and the killer on being up against draws is the combination of a)them being able to semi bluff and b)implied odds. Those don't change much with bet size into a small pot with bigger stacks behind on the flop.
This is something I've been meaning to write about, since it's a problem I see quite frequently. In fact, even though the bigger bet ostensibly serves to 'punish the draw,' it pumps up his implied odds considerably (remember, our opponent's implied odds are directly proportional to our spewage potential) since we bloat the pot, force ourselves to make a larger bet on subsequent streets, yadda yadda yadda. It might actually be worse against flush draws than the smaller bet, despite him 'taking the worst of it' by calling.
I probably prefer a slightly larger bet myself, mostly to commit one pair hands and semi-bluffs to putting more money in while behind: I'd kinda like this hand to go bet-raise-mepush on the flop.
| Quote: | | wouldn't a AdJd or AdQx will play this the same as villain? |
Maybe, probably not all that frequently though. Both hands, especially AQ tend to raise the flop, as does the only other semi-reasonable non-bluffy hand we're ahead of (67)
If we knew he's tricky or a bit aggressive, or knew that the average player in these things can be tricky it might be worthwhile to call the turn and either check-pray the river (and probably fold to a reasonable bet), or bet like 200 on safe cards, due to how tasty our odds are on the turn raise. Lots of player dependent uncertainty. Either way, I think we'll at least agree that we can't want to put too much more money into this pot under almost any circumstance.
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:23 am GMT by Dave B
ALL YOU CAN EAT BABY!
I think he is raising here w/ Qx to check behind on the river and get a cheap showdown.
I cant believe that so many would laydown 2 pair at this point of a SNG w/ a very innocent board. SO MANY think top pair is unbeatable. Your flop and turn bet have not showed any significant strength, so he is just responding to your weakness.
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 9:44 am GMT by suitedaces84
| snoogins47 wrote: | | (remember, our opponent's implied odds are positively proportional to our spewage potential) |
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:04 am GMT by snoogins47
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | snoogins47 wrote: | | (remember, our opponent's implied odds are positively proportional to our spewage potential) |
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Shush. Maybe my intention was irony? HMMM!?!??
Yeah typo. Me bad.
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:44 am GMT by vyni
I'm with dave here: We haven't shown any strength, and villains raise doesn't either. If he had min raised the flop would we have folded? Of course not. That jack on the turn shouldn't scare us at all aside from the risk of QJ on villain, which I'd pay to see here.
If a  falls on the turn, I'm not sure how I'd play it. Likely represent the flush but strongly consider a fold to any considerable reraise by villain. Depends a lot on how we've seen villain play.
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:00 pm GMT by kingetje
yeah i dont think you can fold this that easily against a MINRAISE
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:17 pm GMT by Ciso_B
I bet on the flop and on the turn, how is that not strength lol?
I didnt have a plan if he re raised I'd fold , just the way it happened, just call then throw out a min raise, like hes wantin me to move all in here. Which lead me to think it was a powerhouse hand like QJ or 3 of a kind.
Dave is right people over play top pair often , but $60 entry fee is usually players of a reasonable standard, I can't assume players are bad till proven good, only the other way around.
Problem with this hand was - few hands are beating me. Which makes it a questionable fold imo.
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:41 pm GMT by Dave B
Yes, $55 SNG are not going to make as many bad calls, but I have found that they are more than willing to make a play at a reasonable sized pot.
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:31 pm GMT by kompis
Well i learned the hard way that its best to assume your opponents are normal and not insane tryiing out silly moves all the time etc.
Against a normal opponent imo Q7 is dominated either by QJ or a set.. the way the hand has played out it certainly feels like he is beating us - unless he is not a normal guy and seriously plays strange poker.
The min raise is not just a min raise, becuase if a brick comes off on the turn you will more often than not be compelled to call another bet, so while the min raise looks easy to call it can cost you alot over the long term.
I disagree that we've shown no strength, as ciso said we have bet 2 streets and he has shown considerable strength in re raising minimum.
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:04 pm GMT by Geno
| Dave B wrote: | | I cant believe that so many would laydown 2 pair at this point of a SNG w/ a very innocent board. SO MANY think top pair is unbeatable. Your flop and turn bet have not showed any significant strength, so he is just responding to your weakness. |
I'm kinda with Dave here although I fear it may be a leak in my game in that I don't think I'd be able to give up Q7 here and it might be costly..... Then again, scared folds cost too 
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 6:20 pm GMT by TheSalche
Yeah but as the wise poker giant Steve Dannenman said, Folding is only a small mistake.
Posted Mon Mar 26, 2007 7:42 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
Wouldn't a 2 pair hand with say a jack make a smiliar type play? Theres only two likely holdings that have us beat, QJ and a set of 6's. It's unlikely that he limped wtih jacks or queens, and you hold a 7 so its less likely he'll have 77.
You've shown little strength so far. Near min bet on the flop and moderately sized turn bet. He could easily be trying to push you off the pot. Pocket kings or aces are also a possiblity, slightly more likely they'd limp with those than JJ.
I'd prolly repop it, 250 on top and then consider folding to a raise or a push.
I think you're narrowing his range too much considering how the hand was played. I could easily see him making this play with a wide variety of hands. 67, AJd, K10d, AA, KK, QJ, 66, bluff.
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