Problems with 2 kinds of flops |
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Posted Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:44 am GMT by Eusebio
Hi!
I see myself over and over again in the same situation... losing money with flops like this:
I have A  9
flop comes:
3  4 9
or
flop comes:
9 J  J 
Against 1 or 2 opponents i like to play it fast, I bet about 3/4 of the pot. depending on my read i will most definitly bet on 4th Street too(in the first example)...
I am playing the second flop very cautious, when somebody calls my bet, but the problem here is that i will have to call his bets on turn and river (as long as they are not very scary). Playing the second flop oop makes it even more dangerous...
How is your approach? If you want I can post a couple of hands...
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Posted Thu Apr 05, 2007 6:32 am GMT by MrDarling
In an unraised pot, check/fold is your best action. You might sometimes stab at the pot but fold or slow down if someone even call.
Especially oop.
Posted Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:22 pm GMT by exit music
Post actual hand histories and we can tell you specifically what you should be thinking about on each street. Generally, you want to play this kind of hand pretty aggressively on the flop, but slow down on the turn or river. But again, it depends on the situation, so dig out HHs if you want real help.
Posted Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:58 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
On these types of flops I'll usually take a shot on the flop if it's checked to me, but I'll play very cautiously if I get called (ie hope to check it down), and insta-dump if I get raised unless I have a very player-specific reason not to.
Posted Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:25 pm GMT by snoogins47
I'd much rather play A fast than B, but yeah specific hands probably help.
Posted Thu Apr 05, 2007 5:16 pm GMT by Eusebio
Just saw that FT didnt store the Hand histories 
but I will recronstruct it...
lets concentrate first on the first case of the two...
btw I came tilting a bit from a razz-table (now I know why they call it a game for masochists  ) and i think i played it bad, wouldnt commit me so much in the future...
4 handed on FT
Blinds .15/.30
Villain 60$
Player1 ?
Player2 ? (both had more than 30)
Eusebio 30$
I am in the BB with A9s
UTG raises to 1
Villain calls
Sb calls
Eusebio calls
flop is the one from above
349s
Sb checks
I bet the pot
UTG folds
Dealer calls
SB folds
Turn is a 6 (not the s)
I bet the pot
He calls
by now I put him on a weak to medium ace, dont think he has the flush yet, because he should/would have pushed the turn
River comes a K (not the s)
I dont see any K in his hand so far and was pretty sure he didnt have the flush and i would probably have to call a bet from him...
so I push all in...
2nd hand at the local cardroom
8 Handed
4 limpers to me in the Biglind, my stack is about 150€
I check my JTos
flop comes 5JTs
Sb checks
I raise pot
MP who has me covered calls, Sb calls
Turn is a 2 os
Sb checks
I raise the pot
both call
River comes a 7os
Sb checks
I check
MP pushes allin
2 examples... i hope they help...
Posted Sun Apr 15, 2007 7:19 am GMT by Yozman
ill represent the monster flush or set, take my time to bet n bet hlf the pot as if i really want acall. if i get a call then i prob make another sneeky half pot bet n hope 4 a fold, if call i chek the river n fold if a decent bet id made
Posted Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:15 pm GMT by MrDarling
I wrote two longer replies and deleted them.
first you have to ask your self, do you really think your hand is the best in both cases or are you simply representing the flush trying to scare everyone off the pot?
In hand 1 you are behind so many hands : Made flush, over pairs, sets. Without reads I'm pretty much done with this hand when my flop bet get called (and I rarely bet the pot - 2/3 will give same info) in fact, with 3-4 players to act behind, I probably not even bet that. Since I got good relative position to the bet raiser I might call his c-bet if every one else fold. if someone else calls, I'm either behind already or will be drawn out on often.
hand 2 is little more sticky. I hate 2 callers in this situation. I think on the turn , there is no real difference between pot bet to 1/2 a pot. If both call, both have odds to chase any draw.
Seems to me that MP either had a flush or more likely he had a OESD with 89 and hit on the river. In any case, this is pretty much an easy fold with out reads, if his stack is big enough to not laying you odds to call.
Posted Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:44 pm GMT by jeffonline
The first hand you are either behind or in front on the flop. I may make one reasonable bet and show my hand down as cheaply as possible if called, I sometimes check from an early position and try to get a cheap look at the turn, I would not call a re-raise.
Hand 2, 9JJ, I would treat this similar to hand 1, make one attempt to win the hand, show it down as cheaply as possible or get out. Even if the A’s falls on the turn we still can’t be sure that we are in front with the board paired. I would not check this flop because I need information and trips with the board paired is normally slow played.
Hand 2, 5JTs, more difficult, when two others call my raise, I would have to presume one has a flush, I have 4 outs and could still have the best hand if both wree drawing. I think you played this hand just fine. Villain may have made a str8 but I would presume he made the flush on the flop, he has called 2 big raises and now has put all his chips in the pot, a not so easy fold.
Posted Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:03 am GMT by Eusebio
@MrDarling
why did u delete them?? 
@hands
#1
as I said, I pushed all-in and the guy called with AA, one spade...
this was stupid, i admit, I forgot the #1 pokerrule "dont go broke with one pair" 
#2
was a bit trickier... Would this guy slowplay the nutflush? He seemed like a reasonable player and I guess would have pushed the turn, after my bet...
I took some time and he showed really sings of weakness, but unfortunatly I didn´t have the education about nonverbal behavior yet...
so I folded and he flipped over Ad 7s
Later I will write about the other problems...
Posted Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:39 am GMT by MrDarling
hand 1 - pushing that river is the worse move you can make. Which hands that you beat call you? There is no value in that. Ask your self that, will you play the nut flush the same you you played this hand? I doubt it. I think you will try to get more value out of it.
Hand 2 - This really depend on any reads I have on villain and the way the table play.
If I bet OOP on this hand I'll keep the bets smaller, try to control the pot size. Which also means I put another bet on the river. if he raised that - he gets the pot.
And since he was stupid enough to show his bluff, make a note and stack him later.
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