Playing loose; my initial observations |
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Posted Sun Apr 22, 2007 2:19 pm GMT by jimmer
I've totally changed my game and learning so much. Before I start, I suppose i better give you a little history. Simply, I have always played VERY tight and aggresive. I very rarely played a hand, and when I did, I raised pre-flop. This meant I usually faced one or two opponents on the flop, turn (and if we got that far), river. On the lower stakes, this approach worked well. However I'm noticing that on the larger stakes I need to mix-up my game more. Therefore I've gone back to the micro limits and playing a style which is totally unnatural to me. I'm learning to play loose. This will hopefully be a very positive learning experience, which means my game can only improve. It also means that I can mix my game up a bit more.
I've only played around 30 hours. These are my initial rough notes and observations. I'm sure plenty of these points need tweeking. Please feel free!
Some of this stuff is so basic, I'm embarrised to write it. Anyway here goes.
All the following information is based on 10 seater cash tables.
General theories on playing styles.
Now I know i'm going to get 101 comments regarding the following assesment, but please, please, please remember this is very general, and yes there are always exceptions to the rule. However, on the whole, the following is common;
When playing tight, you wait for premium hands and because of this, you're hands are generally better than average. Most of the time, it also means you raise pre-flop. This means most hands are contested between fewer players. After the flop, against one or two players, you can generally be a bit more aggressive. This is because although the flop may not of helped you, it probably didn't help the others either. Therefore the use of raise/re-raise continuation/probe/value bets are common. On the other hand, now I'm playing a looser style I generally entering more pots. Because I'm playing more hands, it's costing me more money, therefore I need to enter these pots as cheaply as possible. Because I'm entering more pots cheaply, there are usually more players contesting the flop.
Table and seat selection.
When playing tight and aggressive, table and seat selection was never a big priority. Most of the hands I played were raised preflop, either just enough to get action or just enough to lose it, depending on the hand. Now I'm realising that a passive table (with lots of limpers and no raisers) is a must. This means I can see lots of flops cheaply giving me better pot odds. On a perfect table, I would now choose two and maybe even three tight players to my left. The reason is to do with position.
Position
Position is a big importance in both tight and loose play, but for different reasons. When playing tight, I was folding most hands, unless I had position. However when playing loose, I'm trying to limp as much as possible. Therefore I don't want a raiser once I've limped. When I first started playing loose, I only limped on the button as I was too scared of being raised. Now I realise that the tighter players play less hands and therefore if they are sat to my left, I'm effectively increasing my chances of acting last on the flop, as they're folding more hands preflop. Therefore I don't just limp on the button, I can do it in late (and sometimes) middle position aswell.
Limping
Limping is easy, the problem is; being sucked in on the flop is easy too. Let me give you an example. I'm on the button with 68 suited and 4 limpers. I decide to limp in aswell. The flop comes 38J rainbow. The player in early bets 1/4 of the pot, everyone else folds. Now when I was playing tight and aggressive, depending on a number of factors including; a read on the other guy, the texture of the flop, the small bet from EP, my middle pair, and my table image, if I raised there's a good chance I could win there and then. However, because I limped, so did he! I have no information on his hand what so ever. I'm playing blind. Because I've limped, this synario happens quite often and I've found it's costing me alot of money chasing empty promises. Sometimes I feel I may have the best hand, but I'm not willing to risk it.
On another limping issue. I'm starting to find that I need to enter as many pots as I can as cheaply as I can. Lets say I get dealt pocket 6's. Someone in early raises 3xBB and gets 4 callers, the pot odds would suggest I should also call. However, I'm finding against this amount of opponents even if the pot odds are tempting, I'm likely to be facing a battle on the flop. Therefore I would now hold back on this hand as I could probably (for example) limp on the next three hands instead. However, having said this, I am slightly unsure wheather this is the right decision. This admittedly needs more work and thought.
Table image
When I have a genuine hand, I'm finding it harder to narrow the field. This is obviously because I now have a loose image, so more players are fighting back. When I played tight, (depending on lots of other factors) an average raise of 3-5xBB narrowed the field to one, maybe two opponents. Now I'm playing loose, I'm noticing a raise of about 6-10xBB still gets at least one caller. This works well when you have a preimum hand, but also means the hand variations you face (from your opponents) increases. Therefore this increases your chance of being donked.
Hands
I'm obviously playing more than the usual "premium" hands. I find I'm making a lot of money from pocket connectors and pocket connectors-miss-one. Mainly because these hands are well disguised. I'm also finding I can occationally win big when I hit the flop with total junk. For example, last week I limped in late position with T7 suited. The flop was T73, the turn is a 7. Some guy puts me all-in, the rest is history. However once again, I'm unsure if limping in with these type of hands pays off in the long run, I'm guessing not. Having said that, at first glance, most players would say I'm playing with a big negitive expectation, however these hands are so well disguised, when I do hit (combined with my now very loose image), it means I usually get big action.
Pot odds
As a rule, I'm facing more players on the flop, turn and river (because I'm limping more pre-flop). Therefore when I decide to bet, I'm generally getting better pot odds. This means I'm sometimes playing hands that don't give me the correct pot odds as when I hit the implied odds are very favourable. Once again, when I played tight, I usually faced one or two opponents. Therefore it was hard to get the right price to call bets for later streets.
Size of the pots
I'm finding because I'm facing more players I can gradually build pots bigger than when I was playing tight/aggressive. I thought the exact opposite would be true.
Being donked
Because I'm playing more hands and sometimes catching a monster, other players perceive me as a donk (rightly so). Sooner or later I'm gonna have a big hand yet walk into a monster. Therefore the rule is very simple; If you play like a donk...........expect to be donked!
Chip stack size.
Of course, because I'm playing more hands, I'm risking more money. Therefore the value of my chip stack changes quicker. One minute I'm up, the next I'm down. I'm obviously spending more time evaluating on which hands gain me money and visa-versa, which hands loose it.
To summerise
It's been a big, worthwhile experience. I'm playing the exact opposite to the way I know and I'm learning loads. The biggest factor I've found is having the ability to out-play the others post flop. The process is slightly easier as I'm playing them more often, (because I'm playing more hands). The other key point is the time required to play. I need to get in the other players heads and this takes time. If you wanna make money playing loose and only have an hour spare, forget it. Sooner or later I'm gonna find someone who's ten times better than me and they're gonna tare me apart.
I'll post more observations after 100 hours'ish.
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Posted Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:28 pm GMT by khaosanroad
don't be afraid to call that raise with your 66. If you don't hit a set, then let it go in a multiway pot.
Posted Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:31 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
Playing loose is also a lot more entertaining, which I've found to be key for me. If I sit there for a couple hours and only play a few hands, I tend to get bored and undisciplined, leading to big mistakes. I've found that if I play a lot more pots, its easy for me to get away from some hands that I might not be able to otherwise.
I played exceptionally bad a few months ago, and completely blew my bankroll of 1.5k save for 8$. I took a little time off and now I'm back building it back up, playing extremely loose and its really fun. I hope to be out of the micro stakes in a couple weeks and into slightly larger games again. But for now, I'm just enjoying playing ~50% of my hands at 9-max and actually winning.
Oh, and makes sure you value bet on the river... every time. Even if its only 1/5 or 1/4 of the pot. With a loose image you'll almost always get paid off, and with the amount of pots you're playing its critical that you make those small extra bets.
Posted Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:36 pm GMT by kingetje
yeah. how can you say youre playng loose when folding 6--6 for a normal raise in a multiway pot?
thats just wrong 
Posted Mon Apr 23, 2007 2:46 am GMT by tame_deuces
Also try playing loose and usually raising/betting and being somewhat stubborn and call when raised also. It really can give some players headaches and is a very refreshing and entertaining way to play. You'll spew some more, but it usually comes back in the form of bigger pots.
I don't think playing loose is some big key into earning alot more money at the tables, often I think if this happens it is more due to the playing tight strategy being misapplied.
A really tough TAG who knows who he can put pressure on (usually weaker TAGs, clever LAGs etc.), isn't afraid of the occasional big pot or playing for stacks, and knows who to just keep it safe against, and who can also play the occasional speculative hands is one helluva tough poker player.
But maybe when you reach some stakes of poker, the whole notion of 'branding' poker styles becomes a moot point, I don't know.
Posted Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:18 pm GMT by jimmer
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | Playing loose is also a lot more entertaining, which I've found to be key for me. If I sit there for a couple hours and only play a few hands, I tend to get bored and undisciplined, leading to big mistakes. |
I think you're right. It's easier to sit playing a hand than it is to sit watching one!
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | Oh, and makes sure you value bet on the river... every time. Even if its only 1/5 or 1/4 of the pot. With a loose image you'll almost always get paid off, and with the amount of pots you're playing its critical that you make those small extra bets. |
Good point. This is something i don't do as often as i should. When i played tight, my favorite weapon was the check-raise. This obviously doesn't work half as much as it did before.
| kingetje wrote: | yeah. how can you say youre playng loose when folding 6--6 for a normal raise in a multiway pot?
thats just wrong |
I don't doubt your both right. (In fact i know you are). I just look at this hand and think; one raiser, three callers and the SB and BB left to react after me. Yes the pot odds give me a definate call, but I can't imagine I'd be the best hand after the flop, inless i hit a six of course. If i was against one other guy and last to act, I could handle this hand better. Afterall, even if I missed the flop, the chances are; so did he.
But against six others???? Even if they all check, do I make a bid for the pot here? Probably not.
| tame_deuces wrote: | | Also try playing loose and usually raising/betting and being somewhat stubborn and call when raised also. It really can give some players headaches and is a very refreshing and entertaining way to play |
I don't understand, can you give me an example?
| tame_deuces wrote: | | A really tough TAG who knows who he can put pressure on (usually weaker TAGs, clever LAGs etc.), isn't afraid of the occasional big pot or playing for stacks, and knows who to just keep it safe against, and who can also play the occasional speculative hands is one helluva tough poker player. |
Yeah, I've already found a few players where I've told myself to just stay clear. With regards to other playing styles, because I'm playing a lot more pots, the key thing I've noticed is; I can increase the size of the pots when I feel I have the edge, and visa-versa, keep it small when i don't. Once again, playing TAG, my priority was to out-play my opponent, no matter how much it cost, (or fold early in the hand).
Posted Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:28 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| jimmer wrote: |
| tame_deuces wrote: | | Also try playing loose and usually raising/betting and being somewhat stubborn and call when raised also. It really can give some players headaches and is a very refreshing and entertaining way to play |
I don't understand, can you give me an example?
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Typical example which is atleast related, is after a while of hounding people around some guy begins to call you pre and float/raise you on the flop and if you don't intend to make some kind of stand to get him out of your way, its probably just better to chill and stop making moves.
Say the action goes preflop you raise from MP/late, button calls, you miss flop, you bet, button calls, and instead of giving up you C/R turn. Its not a really good move in a vacuum, but if we think button is just pulling some moves because he has seen us raise alot its worth a shot. I've seen it work surprisingly often. Don't even have to raise much at my stakes, in micros I have gotten away with this just min-raising very often.
What I wrote initially is basically just a version of this in pos, if you suspect people raise because they want you to fold, then a call is ok to drive them nuts. ('He isn't just raising everything, bastard never folds either! TILT'!)
Ofcourse, if you get caught here I'd say its time to pack up the laggyness for a while and play the cards. People tend to remember stuff like this. 
Posted Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:51 am GMT by jimmer
| tame_deuces wrote: | | jimmer wrote: |
| tame_deuces wrote: | | Also try playing loose and usually raising/betting and being somewhat stubborn and call when raised also. It really can give some players headaches and is a very refreshing and entertaining way to play |
I don't understand, can you give me an example?
|
Typical example which is atleast related, is after a while of hounding people around some guy begins to call you pre and float/raise you on the flop and if you don't intend to make some kind of stand to get him out of your way, its probably just better to chill and stop making moves.
Say the action goes preflop you raise from MP/late, button calls, you miss flop, you bet, button calls, and instead of giving up you C/R turn. Its not a really good move in a vacuum, but if we think button is just pulling some moves because he has seen us raise alot its worth a shot. I've seen it work surprisingly often. Don't even have to raise much at my stakes, in micros I have gotten away with this just min-raising very often.
What I wrote initially is basically just a version of this in pos, if you suspect people raise because they want you to fold, then a call is ok to drive them nuts. ('He isn't just raising everything, bastard never folds either! TILT'!)
Ofcourse, if you get caught here I'd say its time to pack up the laggyness for a while and play the cards. People tend to remember stuff like this. |
Thanks for this advice. The play is working well. I've actually found that because I'm playing loose and aggressive, when guys start playing back at me, if i min bet/raise, they get very suspicious.
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