How I bust out of tournaments |
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Posted Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:48 pm GMT by Kalbelgarion
I'm re-reading HoH right now, and wanted to get the community's advice on something:
I consider myself a fairly average small-stakes poker player. I play at Pokerstars and I do best when I play in MTTs and SnGs. I make money at those games, and even won a $2, 3000 person MTT last year. Cashing out a hundred bucks every once in a while sure can help a college kid out.
I try to start off tournaments playing very tight, seeing only 10-15% of the flops. I'm very conservative when it comes to what I raise or call with in early or middle position.
I find myself busting out of tournaments around the 100/200 or 100/200/25 stage. Usually at that point I have 2000-2500 in chips, having won a few pots with the few big hands I've seen in the first 30-45 minutes. And the hands that give me the most trouble go something like this:
Blinds: 100/200
UTG: 800
UTG+1: 1600
UTG+2: 3200
MP: 1400
HERO: 2400 (M=8)
CO: 2600
Button: 4500
SB: 2800
BB: 2800
I'm dealt a hand such as AJs. First four players fold. I raise 3x the BB to 600. CO folds, Button calls, and the blinds fold.
Pot is 1500
Flop is 5d, 6h, 10s. I c-bet 600, 2/5ths of the pot to try to take it down for a nice little gain. Button raises me all-in, and I'm forced to fold.
Because of that one little hand, I lost half my stack and my M is now under 5, meaning I should only push or fold pre-flop. And now it's a crapshoot for me as I pray for descent cards before the blinds come back around.
If there anyway to avoid this situation? Is this simply the nature of tournaments where there are only 10-15 minute blind intervals? Should I enter push/fold mode when my M dips under 10?
Could the problem be that I'm being too conservative during the early stages of the tournament when more low-quality players are still around? Rizen recently made a blog post about entering pots with terrible players in the early stages of a tournament to build your stack, even if it means playing with sub-optimal hands. However, I've also always heard that limping and being loose in the first few rounds is a sure way to either have your chips slowly drained away, or caught in an all-in situation without a sure hand to back you up.
What kind of advice can you give me so that I'm not faced with a situation where a raise and a continuation bet costs me half my stack so early in a tournament?
Thanks in advance.
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Posted Wed Apr 25, 2007 4:54 pm GMT by BMG13
If you get anywhere near 10xBB, it's pretty much PUSH/FOLD. You should have pushed preflop. Since you didn't, you should have pushed on the flop. Since you didn't you are left with a crapstack.
Raising 3xBB when you only have 12BB is silly. Especially with a hand where you won't even hit many flops. Raising 3xBB is better for AA/KK if the players behind you will challenge you. It's not great for decent hands.
Posted Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:03 pm GMT by Kalbelgarion
So I should be pushing pre-flop more often while I have a large stack? If my M is, say, 12, is it perfectly alright to raise 3600 in chips to win a pot of 300? Wouldn't this just be over-betting the pot, putting my whole stack at risk when I could bet a smaller amount?
Posted Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:12 pm GMT by BMG13
f*ck M. I said 12xBB, which is what you have. It's not overbetting, because this hand shows the flaws in raising 3xBB and making a c-bet. It leaves you with absolutely nothing.
In your example, you most likely would have won 300 chips, increasing your stack by 12.5%. It also prevents you from being OOP and getting re-raised when junk comes on the flop. You lose your power if you get called, being the first one in and all-in makes it tougher on your opponents to call.
You are increasing your stack by 12.5%... please explain how this is awful. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH STEALING BLINDS.
Posted Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:20 pm GMT by Kalbelgarion
What kind of range of hands should I use for pushing into an unraised pot when I have 12 BB? If I push with AJ here, aren't the only hands that will call me the ones that have me dominated? But that's a risk worth taking to gain 12.5%, right?
Posted Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:48 pm GMT by BMG13
Just like almost every single poker hand, it depends!
Depends on opponents and what % of hands they call you with. I'm not going to dive into the specifics, since it's way too complicated. You might want to look at a few programs that do the calculations for you.
Since I don't know your table, I just pointed out that pushing all in would have been much better than 3xBB. Folding *might* have been the correct play, but I'm not sure.
Posted Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:14 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
| BMG13 wrote: | | Raising 3xBB when you only have 12BB is silly. |
I don't necessarily agree with this. Usually with 15BB or less I'm usually pushing too, but sometimes when you're sitting with 13BB and pick up a hand like J8s in LP, it's worth raising 3BB to steal the blinds and if you get pushed/reraised it's an easy fold, still leaving you with 10BB.
The situation that the OP described is something that I've had problems with in the past (and probably still do - especially as of late). The way I see it, there are a couple options:
A) Be more involved in the early stages (The Rizen theory). Play cheap pots with suited or connecting cards to try and return a massive pot.
B) Play extremely tight, seldom bluff, and when you make a big hand, be sure to extract maximum value out of it - even if it means overplaying it.
As BMG said, it's usually situational when referring to what range of hands you should push with. Your position, table image, and types of players (and their stack sizes) behind you play a big part in what hands you should have confidence in trying to double up with.
With regard to c-bets: don't make them with such a short stack. Often times if you raise PF with a small stack and get called, the flop will bring cards that probably missed your opponent - that's the correct time to push as opposed to betting 1/3 of your stack.
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:57 am GMT by BMG13
| LeafsFan1122 wrote: | | BMG13 wrote: | | Raising 3xBB when you only have 12BB is silly. |
I don't necessarily agree with this. Usually with 15BB or less I'm usually pushing too, but sometimes when you're sitting with 13BB and pick up a hand like J8s in LP, it's worth raising 3BB to steal the blinds and if you get pushed/reraised it's an easy fold, still leaving you with 10BB. |
So wrong. Again, you can find several programs that will calculate this stuff for you.
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:13 am GMT by zinn0
| BMG13 wrote: | | Not only am I a douche, but I also rely on computer programs to make my poker-playing decisions. I like boys, too. |
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:35 am GMT by Johny
pwned
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:32 am GMT by UrAteUp
AJs is not a hand I would be trying to get heavy with from MP. Those type hands are best played from LP. If you play them in MP you still have too many people left to act. The hands that most likely call already have you beat.
The c-bet is a sign of weakness so any pp,PP or AX (Where X > J) is going to push. Even if A10 calls you with that flop your still beat and the C-bet tells everyone this.
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:45 am GMT by MrDarling
| UrAteUp wrote: | | The c-bet is a sign of weakness . |
Really? Since when ?Haven't gotten that memo yet.
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:22 pm GMT by MJJ
| UrAteUp wrote: | | The c-bet is a sign of weakness . |
So what's a sign of strength- checking? 
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:47 pm GMT by snoogins47
| MJJ wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: | | The c-bet is a sign of weakness . |
So what's a sign of strength- checking? |
To be fair, while it's dangerous to say that c-betting is a necessarily a sign of weakness, the inverse is very often true for most players. Not many people will raise like 1/3rd of their stack preflop, get called in one spot, and then check unless they have the intention of calling any bet. Just about the only time it makes sense to check in that spot, other than an unbelievably bad flop, is when you hit.
Also I think the "c-bet that small, which is also the preflop raise amount" probably does indicate some weakness. It's like you were trying to bet the only possible amount that would let you safely fold to a re-raise. That being said:
the way this hand is played on the flop is a disaster
C-betting 600 shows weakness, and puts you in the worst, most confusing possible situation if he raises: where you have no clue whether or not you should call or fold. To be honest, unless the table is a bunch of total nits and the blind level just started, I think the flop is probably a call as played. It's at least worth contemplating, and is far from an auto-fold.
Push the flop, please, or *maaaybe* if he's real real tight preflop, go ahead and check-fold.
BMG: We'd appreciate it if you explain specifically why pushing is better than a smaller raise. I guess the real question is whether or not the push benefits of guaranteed showdown equity and slightly higher fold equity outweigh the ability to get off the hand. When you're down around 10xBB, the answer is typically 'YES' but there's other things to consider, like the frequency/types of hands that will resteal if the bet is small enough. Typically when you're this short, I only like <push raises with big hands, to get people more involved. This shows up a lot with hands like AQ too (and probably AJ) since if the raise size and stack size is right, a push will get rid of a lot of Ax hands that might be inclined to re-push in a different spot.
It does 'depend,' but "you're so wrong check computer programs that I'm not going to name" isn't the greatest way to come off as if you know what you're talking about.
| Quote: | | What kind of advice can you give me so that I'm not faced with a situation where a raise and a continuation bet costs me half my stack so early in a tournament? |
Just realize that even though stacks around 10-20BBs *feel* much more substantial, it's still totally a crapshoot, for all the reasons you noticed in this hand.
Posted Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:12 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| MJJ wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: | | The c-bet is a sign of weakness . |
So what's a sign of strength- checking? |
Nah pushing wise-@#$$...  ...but do you want to push with AJ when there are several hands left to act?
Normally the C-bet is a good call when you do hit the board or have a solid hand already (PP, AK, or hit a set on the flop). In this case the C-bet was a sign of weakness and left Hero not knowing where he really stands in this hand. Villian who pushed could have been holding an Ax hand and just scared you off of it.
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