This is way it so hard to fold Over pair in Low limits |
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Posted Wed May 02, 2007 6:52 am GMT by MrDarling
Had 2 of these today. Reraised on all under flop. In both case decided to call the flop bet and see what happens. The other hand villain was cleaver enough to check to SD and all he had was TP. This hand however :
Full Tilt Poker Game #2334640639: Table Ashling (6 max) - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 7:12:10 ET - 2007/05/02
Seat 1: Demolition74 ($6.70)
Seat 2: hero ($25.60)
Seat 3: tgun007 ($16.35)
Seat 4: rago25 ($49.90)
Seat 5: Unimpressed ($13.45)
Seat 6: guardavalle1 ($13.15)
hero posts the small blind of $0.10
tgun007 posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero  
rago25 calls $0.25
Unimpressed folds
guardavalle1 calls $0.25
Demolition74 calls $0.25
hero raises to $1.55
tgun007 folds
rago25 calls $1.30
guardavalle1 calls $1.30
Demolition74 calls $1.30
*** FLOP ***   
hero bets $4
rago25 raises to $8
guardavalle1 folds
Demolition74 folds
hero has 15 seconds left to act
hero calls $4
*** TURN *** 
hero checks
rago25 bets $22.45
hero calls $16.05, and is all in
rago25 shows  
hero shows
Uncalled bet of $6.40 returned to rago25
*** RIVER *** 
rago25 shows a pair of Sevens
hero shows three of a kind, Queens
hero wins the pot ($51.85) with three of a kind, Queens
As you can see I took long time to decide on my action. I didn't see a real reason for a set to raise me here. So I was hoping for a TP and a draw kind of a hand (9T , 98) made str was an option, but I can't see someone who call PF raise with 8T not slow playing it.
Was planing to fold the turn if he kept betting. Luckily caught my magic card and was able to c/c and see his crappy hand.
Thats why I say I am usually not good enough to fold over pair in these limits.
Thought?
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Posted Wed May 02, 2007 2:43 pm GMT by LeafsFan1122
It's usually player-dependant, but as you said - it's very hard to fold overpair at such low limits. Often it can be done if Villain is considerably tight and he's representing a bigger hand.
With no reads on the Villain, I like your call on the flop. Good thing you hit your Q on the turn because there were a lot of possible scare cards that could come.
Posted Wed May 02, 2007 3:21 pm GMT by exit music
Raise WAAAAAY more preflop, at least $2.00. When you get min-raised on the flop, either go all-in if you think you are leading, or fold if you think you are beat. Do not call because it automatically pot-commits you, you get zero fold equity, and you let draws take cards for free.
Luckily for you, your opponent really wanted to donate his stack, regardless of how badly you played.
Posted Fri May 04, 2007 4:50 am GMT by NCoE
| exit music wrote: | | Raise WAAAAAY more preflop, at least $2.00. |
Lol why?
I don't like the call here since as exit said you'll basically be committed on 4th. Also there is like no card except the Q's and deuces that you like to see.
A push will get called by alot of inferior hands at these levels. Str8 draws, tp and prolly worse alot of the time too because your fi might convince himself that you are pushing overcards.
Posted Fri May 04, 2007 5:09 am GMT by MrDarling
| exit music wrote: | | ...either go all-in if you think you are leading, or fold if you think you are beat. . |
Am not sure I agree. If I push I allow him to fold worse hand. There is a chance he will fold A9 here. There is no chance of him folding a set, str8 or K's.
So if I do decide to go broke with this hand, why not let him do the betting. *****I'm in position and can raise if I think his bets are too small etc..**** ooops, am not in position
I just had a similar hand. I over bet with Q's on the btn (4 limpers - I bet $2) got one caller. He lead on a 9 high draw. I smooth called. He lead the pot again on a blank turn. I pushed and he folded. I think that was a mistake. Had I just called, I would allow him one more bet, or at least he would have called my river value bet.
Posted Fri May 04, 2007 5:36 am GMT by NCoE
| MrDarling wrote: | | exit music wrote: | | ...either go all-in if you think you are leading, or fold if you think you are beat. . |
Am not sure I agree. If I push I allow him to fold worse hand. There is a chance he will fold A9 here. There is no chance of him folding a set, str8 or K's.
So if I do decide to go broke with this hand, why not let him do the betting. I'm in position and can raise if I think his bets are too small etc..
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There's a difference between deciding to go broke on the flop and on the turn or river. That difference is called reverse implied odds.
Also according to the hh you're not in position at all.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 3:44 pm GMT by UrAteUp
People like villian in hand 1 is why real poker players make money. We got to have the fish boys or the sharks go hungry. So go fishing and stop thinking so much. Save it for the tables.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 8:00 pm GMT by snoogins47
| exit music wrote: | | Raise WAAAAAY more preflop, at least $2.00. When you get min-raised on the flop, either go all-in if you think you are leading, or fold if you think you are beat. Do not call because it automatically pot-commits you, you get zero fold equity, and you let draws take cards for free. |
For the record, "fold equity" isn't inherently a good thing. Raising to make our opponent fold hands is only a good thing generally speaking when folding is a mistake for him.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 8:28 pm GMT by Ryan231
| MrDarling wrote: | | exit music wrote: | | ...either go all-in if you think you are leading, or fold if you think you are beat. . |
Am not sure I agree. If I push I allow him to fold worse hand. There is a chance he will fold A9 here. There is no chance of him folding a set, str8 or K's.
So if I do decide to go broke with this hand, why not let him do the betting. *****I'm in position and can raise if I think his bets are too small etc..**** ooops, am not in position
I just had a similar hand. I over bet with Q's on the btn (4 limpers - I bet $2) got one caller. He lead on a 9 high draw. I smooth called. He lead the pot again on a blank turn. I pushed and he folded. I think that was a mistake. Had I just called, I would allow him one more bet, or at least he would have called my river value bet. |
I think playing your big pairs softly might be an issue if you think you cannot fold your hand later on down the road. If you play passively at the pot on the flop when you hit a flop that really helps your hand but a turn or river could destroy it then you should really make a big raise on the flop, like 4-5x his bet.
The thing I find about big pairs is that they aren't the money makers in cash games, I found the best way to play them was to try and get a lot in before the flop then if I'm lucky they lead and it on the flop, I raise, they fold and I take a nice pot. The whole playing it slow on the flop is nearly always a mistake with an overpair. Say he calls your large raise with 9Ts and leads at the 9 high flop then peels off a 10 on the turn and you end up losing your stack because you pushed into him too late, the more cards you let people see the weaker your large pair becomes, but often the people feel more committed later in the hand so they tend to call a lot of bets with nothing but a pair.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 9:23 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| Ryan231 wrote: |
The thing I find about big pairs is that they aren't the money makers in cash games |
Abit of an old myth, because they pretty much are. I don't think you will find many large databases of poker hands where AA,KK,AKs & QQ aren't in the lead as far as profits go. 
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 9:47 pm GMT by khaosanroad
| tame_deuces wrote: | | Ryan231 wrote: |
The thing I find about big pairs is that they aren't the money makers in cash games |
Abit of an old myth, because they pretty much are. I don't think you will find many large databases of poker hands where AA,KK,AKs & QQ aren't in the lead as far as profits go. |
QFT
They have the highest $ won per hand in my database.
Posted Tue May 08, 2007 1:11 am GMT by MrDarling
Here is what I do not understand you guys : you seem to want to push push push , which usually cause 2 things : worse hands fold, better hand calls.
When I call a big reraise on the flop, I do it with intention to re-evaluate my action on the turn.
Decent players will slow down if they get called and all they have is TPTK.
Bad players will usually show me their hand by the way they bet the turn / river. I do not feel pot committed if half my chips are in.
I never said to slow play big pairs - nor do I intend in any later streets to push UI.
I do get stack with over pairs sometimes, but I also stack people - a lot. I do not have PT so I can't tell if I'm losing or winning with them, but I feel like I'm winning.
Posted Fri May 11, 2007 8:13 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| MrDarling wrote: | | Here is what I do not understand you guys : you seem to want to push push push , which usually cause 2 things : worse hands fold, better hand calls. |
This is a legitimate point. Let's dissect:
1.) Paraphrasing: People may be too aggressive in a potential WA/WB scenario (way ahead/way behind - if you raise all hands you beat fold, all hands which beat you continue).
This is true for NL, and is a common mistake since alot of poker theory/conventional wisdom is geared towards FL play where unbridled aggression are often more rewarded. (Yeah yeah, I know..stupid generalization, but I think it is def to true some extent).
Now let's look at the point for aggressiveness:
1.) Being aggressive makes you a tougher opponent. This is a good point, but you don't necessarily need to be a tough opponent in a weak game. It might not even yield any additional EV. People's blind flaws may appear at full in low stakes even if you are tough or not. In exceptionally tough games being to aggressive may be a very, very bad trait.
2. The texture of the board is such that alot of draws are possible, therefore raising is key.
This is also a good point, the more drawy the board is the more you need to get value out of a hand that is potentially ahead. Here you need to evaluate how often you are ahead up against what you will do on the turn if an obvious draw hits coupled with your position. Even in a WA/WB scenario this might lead to raising being the superior option. For instance, aces on a two heart 289 board on the button plays completely different from aces in the SB on the same board. But changing the texture/opponents will also radically change the hand.
3. What will my opponents call with if I raise?
An extremely important point for low stakes poker in WA/WB scenarios, as they might call even if they are way behind. In low stakes aggression on a 678 board might not mean a straight or a set or even a semibluff, it might mean K8 vs the right opponent. The more your opponent goes into that direction, the more thought you should give to raising.
4. How much does my opponent bluff?
Bluffing gets a little tricky vs good opponents, not so hard vs bad opponents. Vs good opponents who bluff quite abit you can't just go all passive all the time just because you don't have a lock. Typical scenario for this is a 'regulars' game really, where people know eachother a little and might smell the coffee. Vs bad opponents who bluff too much it really isn't that important to be aggressive imo.
My endpoint:
You can write a damn book on this subject and still it wouldn't be complete. What are completely standard '2 second' decisions for an experienced player is really quite the advanced subject if we dumb it down for us others. Suffice to say there are always more factors at play than just thinking "WA/WB!". But I will say that overaggression in NL can be an extremely bad thing sometimes...this definitively used to be my big flaw in poker. Now I just take the easy way out, sometimes I raise...sometimes I call. I try to give the texture and my opponent (if I know him) slight thought when deciding, if it helps...I think so, I ain't got proof though.
Posted Wed May 16, 2007 7:07 pm GMT by MrDarling
here is another example.
My second hand on the table.
When I c/r him I said to my self : self if he call or raise he got to have the J - fold.
He did push, and of course like always when I have a good plan - I ignore it :
Full Tilt Poker Game #2440492077: Table Idledale (6 max) - $0.10/$0.25 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:01:54 ET - 2007/05/16
Seat 1: pumapaulwaul ($9.10)
Seat 2: hero ($25)
Seat 3: Luckyguy3 ($10), is sitting out
Seat 4: Gunshot Man ($20.65)
Seat 5: KoolGuy711 ($24.10)
Seat 6: JCole200 ($26.70)
hero posts the small blind of $0.10
Gunshot Man posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hero 
KoolGuy711 folds
JCole200 folds
pumapaulwaul calls $0.25
hero raises to $1.45
Gunshot Man calls $1.20
pumapaulwaul folds
*** FLOP ***   
hero bets $2.90
Gunshot Man calls $2.90
*** TURN *** 
hero checks
Gunshot Man bets $2.25
hero raises to $6
Gunshot Man raises to $16.30, and is all in
hero calls $10.30
Gunshot Man shows 
hero shows
*** RIVER *** 
Gunshot Man shows a pair of Jacks
hero shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
hero wins the pot ($39.50) with two pair, Queens and Jacks
hero: you gotta be kidding
The thing is, his turn bet just didn't do it to me. Sure, thats exactly how a low level player will play trips. But it just didn't feel right.
I think it was the wrong size, it should have been a lot smaller or a lot bigger.
Or maybe I'm just not good enough to fold over pair
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