Posted Wed May 02, 2007 3:57 pm GMT by AHBrownell
I have started playing tournaments lately and I really have to say that if you are just a ring game player, there is a lot to be learned from playing tournaments too. One of the best plays I recently added to my poker arsenal I like to call the "reverse float" - but I'm sure it has a better name already.
Basically, a float, is when you call a continuation bet with the intention to bet or raise out a player on a subsequent street. ex) Your opponent raises, you call with 78s on the button. The flop comes T42 two suited. Your opponent bets. You call. Turn comes another 4. Your opponent checks. You bet and take the pot.
The "reverse float" is basically offering a pot to be floated by your opponent to earn a bet/raise on the turn/river.
Example 1:
You have 88 in middle position. You raise it up a pot sized bet, 3.5x BB. You get a caller. The flop comes A82. You bet half the pot. Your opponent calls. The turn is a 3. You check and your opponent bets two-thirds the pot. You call. River is a 7. You check. Your opponent bets the pot and you raise and your opponent calls showing TT and you win a big pot.
Example 2:
You have AK in late position. A couple players limp in. You raise it up to a pot sized bet, 4.5x BB. One player calls. The flop comes QJ2. Your opponent checks. You bet half the pot. Your oppponent calls. The turn is a T. Your opponent checks. You check. The river is a 2. Your opponent bets the pot. You raise and your opponent calls showing KJ.
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What do we think of making this play vs simply just value betting the turn. I left suits out of the equation for simplification purposes, but obviously that can affect when or when not to do this. Cheers.
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Posted Wed May 02, 2007 5:32 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
When you do this OOP, you're giving smarter players a chance to see all five cards for a cheap price, and inviting a suckout. Two pair, gutshots, etc are all hands you now have to be afraid of when you allow your opponent to draw for free.
Checking the turn in position isn't good either. It makes more sense to do this with a marginal hand when you're trying to keep the pot small than with a strong one. In the second example you posted, if the river is a K instead of a 2, you're probably not getting that extra bet and you're certainly not getting called on the raise. We're not just concerned with letting our opponent catch. We're also concerned that future cards make it impossible for our opponent to call with a worse hand.
This will work if you use it sparingly, but it better be against the right people. The wrong people will eat you alive.
Posted Wed May 02, 2007 6:42 pm GMT by AHBrownell
So, to follow up on that Sean, what types of players are the right kind, and which are the ones to avoid doing this against?
Its clear that doing this with like TPTK is asking for trouble - I actually did it with top two pair and my opponent two-outed a 3rd eight to knock me out of a 3 person-prize satellite in 4th, so I agree you have to exercise a bit of caution for sure.
I must say that I may not be doing the point justice. I picked it up from a cardrunners video and thought it was so great after trying it out myself that I figured it was worth sharing.
I really tried to give two examples that illustrate the point, but I might have chosen bad examples - its tough to just invent them on the spot. :D The basic idea is that you believe your opponent has an okay to mediocre hand and if you bet on the flop and turn they will fold, so instead you bet the flop, check the turn, and get an extra bet out of them on the river.
Posted Wed May 02, 2007 6:57 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| AHBrownell wrote: | | So, to follow up on that Sean, what types of players are the right kind, and which are the ones to avoid doing this against? |
Aggressive players that will follow up on the turn with nothing. I still wouldn't expect to get a bet or call on the river very often. The turn bet in position after a float is rarely going to be more than a one-street attempt to take the pot. An OOP turn call shows some strength, and smart opponents will check behind or fold on the river unimproved.
| AHBrownell wrote: | | The basic idea is that you believe your opponent has an okay to mediocre hand and if you bet on the flop and turn they will fold, so instead you bet the flop, check the turn, and get an extra bet out of them on the river. |
I think it's very difficult to run it for two streets without having a very good hand while your opponent holds something they like. And, if they like their hand, why trick them into doing something they'd probably do anyway? I think this has very limited application, and probably costs you more money than it makes.
Posted Wed May 02, 2007 7:15 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
If you're going to check the turn there, you should do so with the intent to check-raise. That's a fine play I think OOP. Checking the river potentially loses a LOT of value.
Posted Wed May 02, 2007 7:30 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | If you're going to check the turn there, you should do so with the intent to check-raise. That's a fine play I think OOP. Checking the river potentially loses a LOT of value. |
Yes, OOP, I'd pull the trigger on the turn as well.
In position, checking the turn a) results in a smaller pot on the river and b) allows your opponent to control the bet size. If he throws out a blocking bet on the river, you'll be hard-pressed to size a raise that will get a call. Simply betting the turn and river would likely earn you at least the same amount.
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 12:47 am GMT by MrDarling
The only reason I like to do this once in a while against a floater with a made strong hand (and I will c/r the turn) is so they will think twice before floating me next time when my AK is UI.
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 12:55 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I'm not sure if I would necessarily check to a guy I suspect to be floating, but if I think he may bet for value when checked to, I'm more likely to go for a turn check-raise with a strong hand.
An example of that came up today playing a $2/$4 No Limit game. I limped in the SB with   and we went 4-ways to the flop, which was    . I bet out $8, and got one caller. I knew this guy would usually bet when checked to after he invested money in a pot, so when the turn came the  , I checked to him, intending to check-raise. Yes, it risked him checking behind, but I was relatively confident I would get a chance to make more than if I just bet out. I had other reasons for the move based on stack size which are listed in my blog as well.
But the majority of the time with a strong hand on the flop, you should continue betting on the turn if you were called on the street before.
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 5:07 am GMT by MrDarling
Like I said, I will only do it rarely and against someone who floats me and other players regularly. I might do it with a set or 2 pair that seemed to have missed me. So for example if I raise from CO with 89s and the btn called.
flop is 892 or something. I c-bet he calls. Now this flop seems like it missed my range, in this case I might check to him and reraise his turn bet. hell even if he doesn't bet, there is a bigger chance he will call my river value bet.
I do this, because most of the time when I miss the flop and my c-bet get called I will check/fold.
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 11:48 am GMT by AHBrownell
| Quote: | | Now this flop seems like it missed my range, in this case I might check to him and reraise his turn bet. hell even if he doesn't bet, there is a bigger chance he will call my river value bet. |
This is well stated. I think its important to note that doing this works a lot better when you think your opponent is putting you on a hand, but the board doesn't make sense that you hit it. So you encourage your opponent to think that by making a "weak" play on the turn. Then you can either raise their turn bet or pick up a bet on the river from a bluff catching hand.
Posted Thu May 10, 2007 8:01 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Example:
Full Tilt Poker Game #2396581671: Table Jade Hills - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:57:29 ET - 2007/05/10
Seat 1: McAllin ($390.15)
Seat 2: JHarr1219 ($200)
Seat 3: sk1nnyk1d ($50.35)
Seat 4: VoteFrist2008 ($180)
Seat 5: KNMPOKER ($200)
Seat 6: magiktoolbag13 ($120.55)
Seat 7: jcm694 ($417.25)
Seat 8: torage ($95.15)
Seat 9: jcohu ($330.90)
torage posts the small blind of $1
jcohu posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to KNMPOKER  
McAllin folds
sk1nnyk1d folds
VoteFrist2008 folds
KNMPOKER raises to $7
magiktoolbag13 folds
jcm694 calls $7
torage has 15 seconds left to act
torage folds
jcohu folds
*** FLOP ***   
KNMPOKER bets $8
jcm694 calls $8
*** TURN *** 
KNMPOKER checks
jcm694 bets $24
KNMPOKER calls $24
*** RIVER *** 
KNMPOKER checks
jcm694 bets $85
KNMPOKER calls $85
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jcm694 shows  (a pair of Jacks)
KNMPOKER shows (three of a kind, Jacks)
KNMPOKER wins the pot ($248) with three of a kind, Jacks
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $251 | Rake $3
Board:
Seat 1: McAllin didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: JHarr1219 is sitting out
Seat 3: sk1nnyk1d didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: VoteFrist2008 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: KNMPOKER showed and won ($248) with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 6: magiktoolbag13 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: jcm694 (button) showed and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: torage (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: jcohu (big blind) folded before the Flop
Posted Thu May 10, 2007 8:14 pm GMT by Ensano
| AHBrownell wrote: |
KNMPOKER checks
jcm694 bets $85
KNMPOKER calls $85 |
? why no raise?
Posted Thu May 10, 2007 8:57 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| Ensano wrote: | | AHBrownell wrote: |
KNMPOKER checks
jcm694 bets $85
KNMPOKER calls $85 |
? why no raise? |
Well, what worse hand is calling?
Posted Thu May 10, 2007 9:34 pm GMT by Ensano
it would be 84$ AI into a 336$pot... villian would be still getting 4:1... i can think of a few hands that might call..
Posted Thu May 10, 2007 11:06 pm GMT by exit music
yeah, you have to go all-in on the river there. so many hands can call that are losing.... over pair? J/x? other random shit perhaps... but either way, you are only losing to AJ/KJ (and 8-7 if he wants to play it like that  ) - which means you are losing value by not pushing.
Posted Thu May 10, 2007 11:28 pm GMT by Ensano
DISCLAIMER : I've never playing higher than .50/1$ NL
the way it was played villian could have any PP... the less than min raise give a push rather good value....
Posted Fri May 11, 2007 8:42 am GMT by UrAteUp
Most likely if you do push here and get called it will only be by a hand that is going to beat you. Not likely really but it could happen.
Lets say for the sake of arguing here that villian entered the pot with 44,55 or 66 (all likely hands that someone might enter with even into a raised pot...correct?). Villian has a made boat with that flop if he is playing 44.
So if he is playing 55 you might look at it this way. Hero put out a continuation bet. So either hero missed the flop or he did hit with a J in his hand and is trying to slow play. You still have outs and hero does not know the strength of our hand. You call the bet because your getting odds and you still in hopes of hitting your set. Which, you do now with the turn. Again you have the boat. 66 would work the same way as well. And like someone else mentioned, he could have a straight even by playing 78s or something.
With a push chances are your not going to get any more money from villian because he will know he is beat.
Posted Fri May 11, 2007 9:52 am GMT by AHBrownell
Yah, at the time I put my opponent on AK, AQ or a pair 44-TT, AJ, KJ. The whole idea behind this play is CALLING a bluff on the end from all the hands that you are beating. If you raise, you are no longer getting money from a bluffing hand - cause most will just fold. If you run into AJ, KJ, then you probably were supposed to go broke - but didn't, and if you ran into a flopped or turned full house, then again, you were supposed to go broke - but didn't.
The only difference between a standard "offensive check" and this hand, is that I checked the turn to look weak. I thought it was most likely that my opponent had hands that would want to catch me bluffing, BIG CARDS or pairs 77-TT. These types of hands would assume I missed the board if I showed any weakness at all. So by checking the turn I induced a bluff. Then on the river, I am thinking, I can lose less if I'm losing, and win more if I'm ahead - so I check-call.
Posted Fri May 11, 2007 9:54 am GMT by AHBrownell
Also note, the way I played this hand, if he pushes the river, I call that too...
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