When the antes kick in... |
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Posted Wed May 02, 2007 7:06 pm GMT by AHBrownell
I play a somewhat different strategy than most people in MTTs. I play super loose passive preflop and aggressive postflop.
I've been doing really well in large field MTTs and can usually get through about 4/5th of the field in most tournaments, BUT once the antes kick in I have a really hard time staying active/chipping up if my cards go cold to semi-cold.
My most recent tournament the 100+9 6-handed nightly deep stack tournament on FT, I was chip leader for about 2.5 hours. The antes kicked in. I tried to play a tighter, steal/resteal strategy only to see the stacks around me chip up to even out with me, while my chip stack started to dwindle - and I eventually was knocked out by a few unfavorable coin flips (AKs vs 22 was my final hand, mind you I had 20k when I moved allin against a big stack; he hit quads - gotta love loose callers calling off half their stack with deuces...) in 28th or so for double my buyin.
Anyway, I really feel like my early game strategy is very strong, but I'd like some advice on the mid-late stages of a tournament and how to continue to build up more chips.
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Posted Thu May 03, 2007 12:37 am GMT by MrDarling
From your description it seems like you create a very loose image for your self.
Problem with a loose image is, you need a hand to be able to steal blinds. People will look you up much more closely with marginal hands then they will other players.
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 12:46 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I think it's better to play the other way around. Play tight when blinds are low with no antes (this is also the period when the field is weakest overall), and loosen considerably when the antes kick in, exploiting your tight image from earlier.
Either way, you should usually try to do the opposite of how your opponents perceive you.
On a side note, I think players raise too often with the simple intent of "stealing the blinds" far too often. It is not necessary to steal the blinds once a round to keep chipped up. One good squeeze play can pay the blinds for as many as 4 or 5 orbits.
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 10:57 am GMT by MasterShake
I agree with tight early UNLESS, the rest of the table is also playing tight early. Then you can take advantage of some stealing and bluffing opportunities and get some action with your monster hands later on.
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 11:29 am GMT by AHBrownell
Its interesting that the common tournament strategy is tight early because I think its a major error to play that way in most MTTs.
Diamond sort of hinted at it, but basically I find that at decent level buyin tourneys people play tight early. So I do the opposite. I basically think of my chips early as a whole bunch of lottery tickets. If I get the right flop and my opponent makes the mistake of overplaying their hand, I can win a lot of chips with really junky cards. If you turn over crappy cards a lot, you start getting a lot more chips when you have hands like AA or KK, often doubling through. I usually plan on spending about 50% of my chips in this manner during the early stages of a tournament.
I have yet to encounter a tournament where I simply ran out of chips - I tend to play better than most of these players after the flop so I can pick up lots of small pots with air and like I said when I do hit I often win a much larger pot than I'm supposed to. So I try to limp in with almost any two cards in middle to late position and the blinds. If I bluff I do it for a very small percentage of my stack. If my opponents express interest in the pot and I don't think I can take it away or if they seem to be strong I tend to just dump my hands without spending any more chips.
I find it works really well.
I really just wanted to know if anyone has tried limping LATE in tournament and if they have found it works/doesn't work. I'm going to try it in the big sunday tourneys this weekend, but I'd love to hear if someone has experience playing a looser strategy late in the game.
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 4:04 pm GMT by MrDarling
The higher the blinds are and especially when the ante kicks in I just don't see limping happen enough.
In these cases the pot is big enough PF to be worth fighting for. And most people will punish limpers by raising. Especially if I see you limp with trash I'll raise you every time.
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 6:23 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Well the question is - if I have a lot more chips than you, would you be willing to raise liberally when I limp? I tend to think people play bigger stacks more cautiously.
I think its also important to limp with AA, KK, AK, etc. if you are going to limp AND people are raising you off your hands. Mainly so that when you have a powerhouse like this, you can get them to make a big mistake against you.
In addition, if you start raising me when I limp, I will call you some of the time - especially when you do so from out of position. This will let me reraise bluff you a lot of the time on the flop/turn AND float AND take a lot of your chips when I get lucky (flopping trips or something similar) AND trap you when I have a very strong hand.
I tend to think about it like this. Lets say I limp 10 times. About 2/10 will be a medium strength hand - a pocket pair or a middle ace, king or queen. 7/10 will be awful hands. 1/10 will be a strong hand. If I have to fold about 4 the bad hands, see flops with the other 3, and call with the 3 average/strong hands, I will be seeing a lot of flops. I will surely pick up something of value in at least a couple of those and pick up the pot. And if its when I'm strong - I may be able to get a person to bluff off or lose many more blinds worth of chips than from all the times I've folded...
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 8:24 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Playing the accumulator (playing tons of hand trying to get a large chipstack) or the conservator (playing fewer hands trying to extract value from tight play and instead loosening up later) are difficult to compare. We would have to compare players who master each type of play with a similar degree of skill and variance of results, which is very hard to do, also because the value of chips in a tournament can be hazy (I mean, they're always good but the reflected value in terms of $$$ at different times can be a very iffy subject as long as you're not in the endgame or very start of the tournament).
Posted Thu May 03, 2007 8:54 pm GMT by Ciso_B
I like your ideas on how to play mtts AHbrownell and enjoy playing like that myself, but i find the mtts I enter are difficult to play that way with the small stacks. Although the new 3,000 chip start on ps is more useful.
Lately, I find I am in a position to FT and get a result then am in a situation where I take a shot with A-K, Q-Q find myself in a coin flip and lose. Earlier today for example , AK vs J-J for 160,000 chips with 13 left. Or Last night losing AJd vs A-2 for chip leadership all in pre flop. Its annoying but the truth is late on you just gotta have good/lucky timing and also be a bit lucky. I seem to have neither so I am not the right guy to ask.
As for playing tight to get a tight rep later, thats not really all that true, since you are getting moved around alot online. Stick to your game that accumulates chips AHbrownell and preserve your chips better late on is what I'd say. Hope this helps.GL.
Posted Fri May 04, 2007 1:47 am GMT by MrDarling
| Ciso_B wrote: | ... I seem to have neither so I am not the right guy to ask. ..
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| Quote: | Ciso_B
Online MTT God |
couldn't resist
Posted Fri May 04, 2007 1:49 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
come on Ciso dont let the calm times get u down, u know u can do it
and when variance kicks the up side for u u'll crush
Posted Fri May 04, 2007 12:09 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Thanks for the replies.
Tame, I think you are totally right. I have noticed that both strategies seem to work AND it also seems to not necessarily have any correlation to getting lots of chips early to finishing highly. How many chip leaders early on end up winning tournaments? From what I've seen, not many.
Ciso, thanks for words of encouragement. I'm hoping to put my strategy to use this weekend, I'll update this post with my results. I really think that both you and Tame, hit upon what it takes late in a tourney. I have had a few tournies where the deck seemed to just hit me in the face during the last couple tables of tourney, giving me a basic lock to the final 2. I recently, had a satellite where I reached the final table in 9th (out of 9) and put a bad beat in a pair vs pair situation. Then went on to win the next 10 hands in a row, including knocking out the two biggest stacks. I had over half the chips with 5 players left. After seeing that tournament, I saw what it takes to win these things - luck. Great play can get you so far, but when the blinds get up there you have to catch cards too.
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On an aside, I was playing in a tourney last night, and even with the blinds super high, playing flops seems to be the best way to earn chips most of the time. I floated the chip leader for about 1/4 of his chips last night (nearly all of mine), post-oak bluffed an average stack on a flush card river to pick it up with K high, and reraised bluffed a river when a player made a weak defensive-type river bet with 9-high.
Simply, if you can outplay your opponents after the flop, there is something to be said about continuing to play flops, even with big blinds...
Posted Fri May 04, 2007 3:57 pm GMT by MrDarling
Today I tried your tactics in 2 rebuy satellite MTTs on FT.
wow dude, it works.
Before the first break I played 45% of the pots. In one I didn't have to rebuy and finished the break as chip leader. then played flop trips very bad and let a 1 card flush catch and called his huge bet 
In the second I had to rebuy once (T's vs AQ vs A9 vs K7 AI PF)
but managed to finish the break pretty good without any more buyins
After the break I continue to simply take the pots no one wants..
Interesting
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