Posted Sun May 06, 2007 3:13 am GMT by exit music
PokerStars Game #9772062854: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/05/06 - 02:14:37 (ET)
Table 'Almeisan IV' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: JJames444 ($15.65 in chips)
Seat 2: Top2 ($9.55 in chips)
Seat 3: astrodg ($23.05 in chips)
Seat 4: ap1965 ($20.80 in chips)
Seat 5: MichaelNY ($26 in chips)
Seat 6: hoppy ($24 in chips)
ap1965: posts small blind $0.10
MichaelNY: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to astrodg  
hoppy: raises $0.50 to $0.75
JJames444: calls $0.75
Top2: folds
astrodg: calls $0.75
ap1965: folds
MichaelNY: raises $3.50 to $4.25
hoppy: calls $3.50
JJames444: folds
astrodg: raises $18.80 to $23.05 and is all-in
MichaelNY: folds
hoppy: folds
MichaelNY said, "f-ing aa again"
astrodg collected $13.60 from pot
astrodg: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $13.60 | Rake $0
Seat 1: JJames444 folded before Flop
Seat 2: Top2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: astrodg (button) collected ($13.60)
Seat 4: ap1965 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: MichaelNY (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: hoppy folded before Flop
ship it bitch
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Posted Sun May 06, 2007 4:30 am GMT by MrDarling
What ever it is it's a risky game.
You really have to have reads on all players, that they are good enough to fold Ax or any pocket pair here but not good enough that you will never play A's like that.
Where I play you'd be looked up by any of the above.
Posted Sun May 06, 2007 7:41 am GMT by kingetje
its a damn MIRACLE you didnt get called
Posted Sun May 06, 2007 10:15 am GMT by Jefecaminador
Reraiser must of had crap. I seriously don't know anyone who would of played AA like you did. Just cold calling after 2 others are already in the pot is really bad.
Whenever I see this action and it goes to showdown, the guy in your spot almost always has 7's-10's.
Posted Sun May 06, 2007 12:01 pm GMT by exit music
Shit everyone, I wouldn't do this without an excellent read - and because after the following hand, michaelNY and I had a short dialogue about folding KK preflop and after the initial raiser had cold-called his raise, I saw a f*cking golden squeeze attempt. This is honest to god the first squeeze play I have tried at NL25 in my life, but I just had a crazy feeling that it would fold around.
Do you guys really play at tables where people are happy to go all-in preflop with Ax? and a mid-pair?? I haven't seen ANY play that bad at these levels from people who aren't very short-stacked. Regardless, at this particular table, lots of pots were being won and lost preflop, we were seeing flops less than half the time.
ANyways, this is the set-up hand:
POKERSTARS GAME #9771843105: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/05/06 - 01:51:30 (ET)
Table 'Almeisan IV' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 2: FatToast ($27.85 in chips)
Seat 3: astrodg ($25.50 in chips)
Seat 4: Always Lazy ($24.40 in chips)
Seat 5: MichaelNY ($29.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Infitilt ($37.45 in chips)
Always Lazy: posts small blind $0.10
MichaelNY: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to astrodg  
Infitilt: raises $0.75 to $1
FatToast: folds
astrodg: calls $1
Always Lazy: folds
MichaelNY: raises $3.50 to $4.50
Infitilt: raises $9 to $13.50
astrodg: folds
MichaelNY said, "hmmm"
MichaelNY said, "really have AA?"
astrodg said, "lol you tried to steal my call"
astrodg said, "hahahahaha"
astrodg said, "sucker"
MichaelNY: raises $16 to $29.50 and is all-in
Infitilt: calls $16
*** FLOP ***   
*** TURN *** 
*** RIVER *** 
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MichaelNY: shows   (a pair of Kings)
Infitilt: shows   (a pair of Aces)
Infitilt collected $58.10 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $60.10 | Rake $2
Board
Seat 2: FatToast folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: astrodg (button) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Always Lazy (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: MichaelNY (big blind) showed and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 6: Infitilt showed and won ($58.10) with a pair of Aces
Posted Sun May 06, 2007 12:18 pm GMT by MrDarling
It is true that it is usually the half stacks that are willing to push and call pushed with Ax and mid pairs. But I do see big stacks go into a raising war with 7's and up.
Posted Sun May 06, 2007 1:11 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I still think it's a terrible play that ended up working in your favor.
Posted Sun May 06, 2007 9:50 pm GMT by exit music
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | I still think it's a terrible play that ended up working in your favor. |
Um... can you even make up a better situation for a squeeze-play in a cash game???? SO unless you are saying that you should never squeeze-play unless you're in a donkament, I think you are wrong... seriously
I'm up against one opponent who made a big OOP re-raise after 3 limpers and I"m up against 1 opponent who made a tiny PFR and just cold-called. The raise/cold-caller would NOT play a big pair/AK anywhere close to how he played his hand, so unless he is willing to call a huge bet with A/x - KJ - 77 - whatever, I know he is folding. The re-raiser is an opponent who I KNOW will fold almost any pair to a huge re-raise... I mean, he reluctantly put his stack in PF with KK, so I absolutely know he's folding every pair except AA-QQ. He is also the type of opponent who's range for stealing from a bunch of limp/callers is waaaaaay bigger than QQ+
So again, if you can construct a better situation for making a squeeze-play in NLcash, I welcome you, but honestly, you are wrong if you think this play has no merit.
Posted Sun May 06, 2007 10:04 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| exit music wrote: | | Um... can you even make up a better situation for a squeeze-play in a cash game???? |
I'd look for places where the raisor and 3-bettor will often have done their raising and 3-betting thin. I don't know where you got the idea that these two were raising and 3-betting thin from the hand you posted.
Hold on...is this some kind of super high level thinking where you know they're thinking that you're thinking they have to have good hand so when you push they fold everything but AA (because they know you know they have good hands)? If so, you're probably thinking on too high a level for 25NL.
Posted Sun May 06, 2007 10:06 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
The question is, what hand are YOU representing? Its certainly not a big pocket pair. Squeeze plays are designed to be used when you havent entered the pot yet, or just limped in before all the action started.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 1:08 am GMT by exit music
| suitedaces84 wrote: |
Hold on...is this some kind of super high level thinking where you know they're thinking that you're thinking they have to have good hand so when you push they fold everything but AA (because they know you know they have good hands)? If so, you're probably thinking on too high a level for 25NL. |
I wasn't playing against NL25, I was playing against MichaelNY and hoppy... and I also already explained why I thought they were both weak. BTW you aren't playing against a computer set at level NL25 - you are against dumb humans, who despite being short-rolled - DO THINK - and DO notice patterns.
You can't check-fold and expect to make money playing 6-max. And you can't rely on stacking people with sets if you play 1 hand out of every 45. If you can't see why this move worked - and if you think it was a "well I went all-in and crossed my fingers" type of move, you are wrong and I feel bad for you.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 1:25 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
OK, a couple things:
1. No, I don't think tournaments are the only place to squeeze. But the fact of the matter is that this is not a good situation to squeeze (really it's potentially a re-squeeze since the 3-bettor might be thinking the same as you). Any time stacks are real deep and there is no stack pressure (ie cash games), the squeeze play isn't all that useful. The times I use a play like that in a cash game is really just a "semi"-squeeze where I'm either in LP or the blinds when a loose player has opened for a raise and a second player calls the raise (preferably someone loose, or at least someone who isn't likely capable of smooth calling AA or KK). Hands I might do this with are hands that are good, but you don't mind just taking the pot now, for instance AK, AQ, JJ, and TT (maybe QQ, but that's more of a reraise for value than a "semi"-squeeze).
2. Squeeze plays derive part of their value from offering dangerous reverse implied odds. Raising $18 more with $50 behind is a lot more threatening than moving in for $18. The reason is that with your move, you've completely factored out implied odds and made this a raw pot-odds problem, and with that much in the pot, they're not getting a horrible price to call with a lot more than just AA/KK.
3. This isn't a typical squeeze where someone opens, someone calls, and you raise, exploiting the pressure of the middle player. Instead, you have someone who raises, a bunch of callers, and then someone reraising by a sizable amount, and then the original raiser CALLS. You are just playing a guessing game here, or just praying that neither of them has a hand to call you. Fact is, you have no other information to go off of. UTG raises (a strong play). Another player re-raises after a few callers (a strong play), and then the original raiser calls (weaker, but still a reasonably strong play). Where is the "weakness" you detect? Also, you no longer have the advantage of squeezing the middle player, because he's the guy who re-raised rather than opened.
4. Your hand has good fold equity, but that's the sole value of the hand (refer to point 1). The reality is, if you get a call, you are probably in VERY serious trouble, or at least behind if you're up against AK (in which case you have the losing side of a gamble). As kingtje said, it's a miracle you didn't get called here.
5. What hand ARE you representing (as Jefe said)? If you say your opponents are smart enough to fold a lot of hands here, why would they not be smart enough to realize there is a pretty damn good chance you do not have AA-QQ here?
That's why I don't think the play is very good, and the fact that it worked once opens terrible potential for results-oriented justifications of why this is such a "sophisticated" play. Not trying to be harsh here, but that's my opinion in this situation. Makes for a good discussion though.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 1:30 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| Quote: | | if you think it was a "well I went all-in and crossed my fingers" type of move, you are wrong and I feel bad for you. |
That's a bit judgmental.
You haven't made a convincing case why this move doesn't fall into that category.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 2:44 am GMT by suitedaces84
NY made the exact same play he made when he had a high pocket pair. I understand that he could have something else here. But I don't understand why you think it's so likely. I also don't understand why you rule out a big hand from the player who raised 3xBB, isn't that a standard raise? Does everyone make raises that aren't standard when the have monsters? Help me out here.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 3:01 am GMT by exit music
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | OK, a couple things:
Not trying to be harsh here, but that's my opinion in this situation. Makes for a good discussion though. |
I'm glad you were "harsh", you make a couple good points.... I mainly dispute your betting analysis of the opponents, which is what I'll try to do right now. I'll go over it from the top.
UTG raises to .75 i view this as weak you don't raise your AA-QQ to 3bb I'm guessing he has a multi-way kind of hand a suited connector like mine maybe KQo or worse - or more likely a low/mid pair.
MP Calls we have a multi-way pot
Hero calls 9 is a great hand to take into a multi-way pot standard call here
SB raises 3.75 to 4.25 this is the first "powerful" move that gets made in the hand. In the past this player has made lots of steal moves and was generally a loose aggressive player. His range for betting is probably AQ+ KQ 1010+ I know this opponent has the ability to make a big fold
UTG calls $3.75 this is the crucial point of the hand for me this call does so much to help me out. Firstly it advertises the strength of his hand... ie - not very good. It only re-confirms my suspicion he's got a mid-pair or maybe J standard semi-loose weak passive play at these levels. The other crucial aspect of his call is that it creates a wall between me and SB because SB has someone left to act after him if I re-open the betting.
MP folds ty limp/folder
Hero goes all-in as you have seen I am completely unafraid of UTG in the hand SB's range DOES include 3 hands that will call - AA KK and AK but because of the earlier AA vs. KK hand I knew this guy would make a big fold. Obviously I am trying to represent AA. Whether or not YOU buy it is one thing it is definitely fishy because I cold-call/re-raised but AA often does weird things like that plus I'd been tight-ish up to this point and haven't made any big moves while sitting at the table. UTG's range is nowhere near able to call and half of small blind's range is folding and I'm a 25% 2/3rds of the time he calls and a 45% favorite 1/3rd of the time. I bet SB folded JJ - even if you had JJ do you honestly call a full stack in a powerful preflop all-in? I recall a hand I posted a while ago when I had KK vs AA and the preflop action was almost the same and you said it was a tough spot but usually KK should be folding there. Are you saying you'd call JJ here with a player left to act after you?
other random thoughts....
-it's not the end of the world if I get called. I literally have the best hand possible against AA, in the worst case scenario
-whether or not a traditional squeezeplay goes raise-call-squeeze, the same series of events happened in this hand, only it went re-raise-call-squeeze
-how many hands re-raise allin after a re-raise and a cold-call preflop?
-in the NL25 I play, the implied odds usually cause people to call, not to fold. If I made a smaller raise and left money behind, in this situation, I"m f ucked because I'm only offering better odds to call, and better implied odds to hit their hand.
-I got lucky in this hand because the actual hand my opponent held was in the lower half of his possible range, which allowed him to fold
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 3:09 am GMT by exit music
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | NY made the exact same play he made when he had a high pocket pair. I understand that he could have something else here. But I don't understand why you think it's so likely. |
no, I did put him on a high pocket pair, I just crossed my fingers and hoped he'd fold. Oh, I closed my eyes too.
also, you notice the way he played the other hand, but did you notice how I played it? My image right now is one of being a cold-call/folder, and someone who plays mid-pairs or connectors that way. based on my table image I think it's hard not to put me on AA
| Quote: |
That's a bit judgmental.
You haven't made a convincing case why this move doesn't fall into that category. |
you're right, the post you were referring to was retarded and I was simply defending myself with irrelevant logic
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