Posted Mon May 07, 2007 1:52 pm GMT by Concussed
Dealt KK in a NL $.25-.50 game.
Only 3rd hand, so no history.
I'm 1st to bet, and bet $1
There are 4 callers so pot is $5.
Flop comes 6s5s4d. I curse...
I bet $3.. there are 2 callers.
Turn is Ts.
I bet $4, and there is a Raise to $8, and a caller.
What would you do ?
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Posted Mon May 07, 2007 2:04 pm GMT by Jernej Zorec
bet more preflop ,
fold as it is
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 2:09 pm GMT by Dave B
First, raise more preflop if you want to avoid multiple callers with a big pair. Against 3-4 random hands you are only about 30% to win.
Second, the $3 and $4 bets are just asking for trouble. You dont gain any info and price them in to draw out.
Now given where you ended up, I think I need to call the $4 on the turn. The raiser could just be trying to slow you down if he is on a draw or has A10 K10 and thinks that he might be behind but doesnt want to fold.
Besides, it is $4 to call and a $26 pot-that is nothing.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 2:12 pm GMT by Kalbelgarion
Raise more PF. 2x BB isn't a large enough raise UTG with KK. You want to go to the flop with one or two other players, so raise 4-5x BB.
I assume you don't have the K .
Bet more on the turn or check. I don't really like betting $4 into a $14 pot. A bigger bet would really punish or chase out those who are still chasing their straight draw. If you bet $4 and the first guy calls, the second fellow is calling $4 into a $22 pot, close enough odds to chase an OESD.
As played, I'd call the turn and check/call any reasonable bet on the river, if the river isn't another spade. The raiser on the turn could easily have AT , especially with his puny raise. Another $4 is a bargain for a pot that small.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 2:24 pm GMT by Concussed
I take your point about a poor raise pre-flop.
I am used to playing lower stakes and done pretty well, so decided to move up a level.
A $1 bet at low stakes was ok, but not at this level.
PS..No I didn't have the Ks.
(Just my luck.... Just flopped Nuts Flush and no-one wanted to play...not even when I checked the Flop and made the smallest raise possible.  )
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 2:38 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Bet POT preflop. As a general rule - min raises are not a good play. Its like limping, and anyone who limps with AA, KK, or QQ is asking for a lot of trouble.
If I raise to 2x BB, and 3 callers (which is why I never would do such a thing). I shut down for the rest of the hand. I wouldn't even bet the flop. Check/call if its cheap to the river otherwise just muck it to a big bet. Once that spade hits, you shouldn't put another cent in the pot. Try to work on putting your opponents on hands. When that board comes and I get a call on the flop - I'd put at least one of my opponents on a flush draw that came in on the turn and check/fold.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 6:21 pm GMT by MrDarling
when you bet or raise don't look at the $ amount, look at the bet in regards to the blinds (PF) then in regards to the POT (post flop)
In low levels a lot of people min bet their PF monster and I like to call with almost any two cards, knowing that if I hit the flop hard, I stack them.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 7:10 pm GMT by jeffonline
There are several factors at work here.
1 you are in an early position and have people to act after you possibly up to 9 others.
2. you have a great starting hand but position is your enemy.
You need to reduce the amount of players. Keep in mind you are going to have to play the rest of the hand out of position and that sucks.
If this was an aggressive table and you would have to be convinced that the pot will get raised, I would limp with a view to re-raise any bet quite significantly. Like 3-4 X the bet amount.
If it is a passive table (as it appears) and was getting a lot of limpers I would raise pre-flop about 4-5xBB.
As played you are now up against a made str8, flush str8 draws or two pair, you need to show this down as cheaply as possible IMO.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 9:30 pm GMT by khaosanroad
The 2x raise screams big PP. I personally slow play my big hands a lot, so limping KK is better than just a 2x raise. The key is to be able to lay it down in a multiway pot.
As played you could have bet much bigger on the flop to take away odds, and shut it down if called.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 10:45 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I think one thing you need to consider about your play (every play, not just this one), is why am I making the move that I am?
What's the purpose of raising minimum from EP? To create a large, multiway pot. Is that what we want? Well, we do kinda want a big pot with KK, but not a multiway pot. Any time I'm likely to be out of position, and especially when I have a big pair from early position, I prefer the standard action of raising larger than usual, say 4x the BB or slightly more. That type of bet not only creates a larger pot, but is likely to narrow the range of hands that can call you profitably and cut down the number of callers to one or two.
As you played it, I might bet the flop there, but I might also check since I'm out of position multiway. But after you get that many callers, you should consider yourself done with this pot. Check/fold the turn.
| Quote: | | The 2x raise screams big PP. |
I still don't understand this logic, as though nothing is ever as it seems in Poker and no one ever actually has what they represent. I see a lot of times people say stuff like "small bets scream monster hands" or "he overbet so big he had to have nothing." Doesn't make any sense, and promotes dangerous thinking. Normally, a small raise is exactly what it appears; a weak, speculative hand. The fact that occasionally people blunder by doing this with large pairs before the flop shouldn't bias what we usually take the action to mean.
Posted Mon May 07, 2007 11:14 pm GMT by khaosanroad
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: |
| Quote: | | The 2x raise screams big PP. |
I still don't understand this logic, as though nothing is ever as it seems in Poker and no one ever actually has what they represent. I see a lot of times people say stuff like "small bets scream monster hands" or "he overbet so big he had to have nothing." Doesn't make any sense, and promotes dangerous thinking. Normally, a small raise is exactly what it appears; a weak, speculative hand. The fact that occasionally people blunder by doing this with large pairs before the flop shouldn't bias what we usually take the action to mean. |
I've been seeing it a lot. Perhaps it's just my perception, but I don't see that size raise often, but when I do it is often AA or KK
Posted Tue May 08, 2007 9:58 am GMT by UrAteUp
| khaosanroad wrote: | | xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: |
| Quote: | | The 2x raise screams big PP. |
I still don't understand this logic, as though nothing is ever as it seems in Poker and no one ever actually has what they represent. I see a lot of times people say stuff like "small bets scream monster hands" or "he overbet so big he had to have nothing." Doesn't make any sense, and promotes dangerous thinking. Normally, a small raise is exactly what it appears; a weak, speculative hand. The fact that occasionally people blunder by doing this with large pairs before the flop shouldn't bias what we usually take the action to mean. |
I've been seeing it a lot. Perhaps it's just my perception, but I don't see that size raise often, but when I do it is often AA or KK |
That is the best way in the world to let AA or KK get busted. 2x raise on the BB doesn't keep out those little suited connectors, connectors or pp's. Any one of these hands catching a good flop can kill the value of these large PP.
Posted Tue May 08, 2007 2:36 pm GMT by khaosanroad
| UrAteUp wrote: |
That is the best way in the world to let AA or KK get busted. 2x raise on the BB doesn't keep out those little suited connectors, connectors or pp's. Any one of these hands catching a good flop can kill the value of these large PP. |
To be fair, 4x raises don't really do it either. I limp AA and KK from early position a lot. I'm hoping for someone to raise behind me and smooth call getting him heads up. If no one raises and/or it ends up being a multiway pot I'll make a bet on the flop and shut it down after that if there's a lot of action. It has worked very well for me.
Posted Tue May 08, 2007 10:10 pm GMT by TheSalche
in the future if you have a big pair and the flop comes like this, don't sweat after seeing the flop, its a tell
Posted Wed May 09, 2007 8:11 am GMT by UrAteUp
| khaosanroad wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: |
That is the best way in the world to let AA or KK get busted. 2x raise on the BB doesn't keep out those little suited connectors, connectors or pp's. Any one of these hands catching a good flop can kill the value of these large PP. |
To be fair, 4x raises don't really do it either. I limp AA and KK from early position a lot. I'm hoping for someone to raise behind me and smooth call getting him heads up. If no one raises and/or it ends up being a multiway pot I'll make a bet on the flop and shut it down after that if there's a lot of action. It has worked very well for me. |
I still don't like it. a 4x raise preflop even when your out of position will keep most stragglers out of a pot. The important thing here is to decide what to do if you do meet resistance.
In this case villian met some pretty stiff resistance on the turn. He could be facing a flush, two pair or even a board made TPTK not knowing that villian has a large over pair. Again knowing how the other players played would determine my next move. If I do not have this solid type information then most likely I lay it down right here on the turn.
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