Posted Tue May 15, 2007 11:33 am GMT by MrDarling
So what is so bad with open limping?
I often open limp if the table allow it (if every time I limped I get raised I'll change)
following hands I'll limp it about 40% , raise 50% and fold 10% :
Suited connectors, Axs, face cards.
If I get raised from LP I'll probable only fold the big cards as they are easily dominated.
The reason I do not like to raise with the above often are :
1. I don't think this hands can stand a reraise
2. when I raise, I feel obligated to c-bet. Which can become quite costly if you keep missing and getting played back at.
So help me understand why open limping is so bad.
Danny
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Posted Tue May 15, 2007 11:35 am GMT by AHBrownell
I  limping.
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 11:40 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
i practicly never open limp, if i'm first in i always raise,
i might limp behind but thats it
while at lower levels limping might be ok to do, at higher levels u wll get reraised a lot of times and u will be forced to fold or play the hand out of position when u have no control of the hand
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 11:51 am GMT by MrDarling
Well I hate playing big pot out of position when I was the PF raiser.
what kind of a control do you have on the hand?
sure, in higher levels it will be HU more often then not - so c-bet is easier (and cheaper)
in the micro often you get 2-3 callers. Then if you miss OOP you basically have to give up the hand.
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 11:55 am GMT by MrDarling
was supposed to be new topic
*****deleted by poster*****
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 12:17 pm GMT by tame_deuces
The above hand doesn't involve open-limping.
To the original question:
There is nothing wrong with open-limping.
There is however something horribly wrong with openlimping weak speculative hands in early position and raising strong hands dealt under the same circumstance.
It doesn't do...anything.... You're gunning for a play that isn't going to win you any money in a vacuum (weak speculative hands do not make money on their own in the long haul), it isn't creating any sorts of usable metagame/shania that can yield payoff on your big hands. Basically you are just tossing in a chip and crossing your fingers for whatever happens after you.
Please don't confuse this with a debate on the subject of open-limping as whole. 
And cashgames and tournaments are really not comparable in this either, as chip values are not always linear to $$$ in tournaments.
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 12:22 pm GMT by exit music
You can't really fold on the river there... and cold-calling with   is much more horrible than open limping, and it's also very different. Open limping is when you open the pot (you are the first one in) with a limp.
Open limping is bad for a couple reasons.
-if your opponents notice that you limp a lot, and don't raise PF very often, you will be sickly easy to read PF. By opening the pot with a raise when you play low/mid PPs, suited connectors, unsuited broadway cards, ect, you will have a much tougher table image, and people wont really know how to play against you.
- By limping with these better than average hands, you are leaving money on the table. You are allowing blinds to see free cards, which will allow them to beat you. If you have A/x suited, you aren't hitting a huge flop very often, which leads me to believe you are just folding. If your opponents see you limp/fold after the flop, you will be very easy to read post-flop because you will never continue after a limp without a straight/flush, ect
Learn how and when to continuation bet, think really hard about the size of the raise - don't just c-bet half the pot because you'll get called and played back at by anything because you look weak. Pay attention to the texture of the flop, and don't c-bet every time... say between 40-60% of the time at most.
Anyways, I gotta go to work... so thats all I have to say
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 12:29 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| exit music wrote: |
Learn how and when to continuation bet, think really hard about the size of the raise - don't just c-bet half the pot because you'll get called and played back at by anything because you look weak. Pay attention to the texture of the flop, and don't c-bet every time... say between 40-60% of the time at most.
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This is an excellent point. It is also why all NL players should really try some FL, where you tend to learn what texture means soooo much faster. 
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 12:40 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Well its all table dependent isn't it?
I mean if you have a tight table who tend to fold a lot when they don't have much, open-limping can be a great way to win lots of small pots. If you have loose aggressive players who will liberally raise your limping and put you to a decision every time you try to bluff a pot off them, then obviously don't open-limp.
I love finding a table that will let me get away with open-limping. As an aside, I think its important that if you are going to limp with weak hands, you need to limp with strong hands at least some of the time. I tend to not limp with hands like QQ or KK, but the occasional limp with AK, AQ, or AA can get your opponents off raising you with nothing.
I would also say that if I'm winning, I'm more inclined to start limping a lot of hands - and if I'm losing I'd be less likely to make this a standard part of my arsenal. When I'm winning I want opponents to play more pots with me, and to be confused about what I have. People will start thinking you are a nut when you are limping UTG with the 43s and the board gives you trips, two pair, or a straight and you win a big pot HOWEVER they will probably start misplaying their cards against you.
This all being said - I wouldn't start open limping with crap cards for no reason. Under the right circumstances though - it can be very, very powerful.
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 12:46 pm GMT by MrDarling
the above post wasn't suppose to come here. So for those who don't understand what exit is talking about with check out this thread
Now, I actually do raise, a lot! In 6 max I see around 40% of the flops. And I think I raise at least half of them. and like I said, with the above hand I raise them just as much as I limp them.
when I limp from the last two position I will often take the pot down if no one else wants it.
Now, What is so bad with cold calling? I much rather cold call with SC then with AQ - AJ. Do you cold call with any pair? Of course you do (unless you raise them)
your chances of improving SC is much bigger then your chances of improving small pocket pair.
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 12:53 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Cold-calling with an SC or PP is usually horrible, but nobody cold-called anything in the 42s hand. Cold calling is when the pot goes say...UTG raises -> MP reraises -> You call in the CO with some hand. That's coldcalling.
Otherwise its just calling, which AFAIK is fairly standard to do with a wide variety of hands in NL. Don't delude yourself to believing 42s is a big winner though, because it isn't. So it better be the part of some bigger plan (which works) or else its useless.
But now this thread is going all over the place.
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