AA-Trick gone bad, time to fold? |
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Posted Tue May 22, 2007 5:27 pm GMT by Eusebio
played a live tourney today (busted 25th out of 166) and follwing hand came up
Blinds 250/500
I find AA utg (13.000)
since SB was on a rush and raised every, and i mean every, pot, i decided to call and probably make some chips here... well cutoff calls, SB calls, BB checks... everybody has me covered...
flop comes
  
SB bets 500
BB raises to 2500
no reads on BB
So, is this a time to lay them down...
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Posted Tue May 22, 2007 5:35 pm GMT by MrDarling
yep - should be easy fold.
The only reason to limp with A's is if you are sure someone will raise PF as you want to reraise them.
Once you allow 3-4 people see the flop you often lose your edge. You could be facing a set, 2 pairs or some kind of a draw and it will cost you to much to find out.
But what do I know, I still find it very hard to fold over pairs.
Posted Tue May 22, 2007 5:45 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
It's probably right to push or fold, depending on the exact circumstances of the table.
But normally, this is the type of situation where you wouldn't feel too bad about folding, especially with more players left tp act behind. You COULD be facing AJ and KJ here, but there are a lot of times you're in bad shape.
Posted Tue May 22, 2007 6:21 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Good play, it's too bad it didn't work out, but good plays often won't. You only started with 26 big blinds so I wouldn't feel too bad about getting in here, but folding isn't bad either. A lot depends on the payout structure.
Posted Tue May 22, 2007 7:31 pm GMT by Ciso_B
folding would probably the smartest thing in the long run , you're playing a flop with 3 opponents and two completely random hands have raised and re raised. Unless I have a read here on them thinking im good then I think its time to fold.
| Quote: | | You only started with 26 big blinds so I wouldn't feel too bad about getting in here |
This is not a case for calling imo, cos 26 x bb in a tournament is not short stacked in a mtt at all, especially a live mtt where frequently FT average is like 8-12x bb.
Posted Tue May 22, 2007 7:56 pm GMT by jeffonline
The cut off appears to have nothing because he has been raising every pot but only called this time(could be slow playing for variation). Small blind has picked up a little bit of this hand possibly holding JK JQ AT A3, big blind is our concern, may have PP 33 certainly does not look like TT JJ you would think that BB would have raised pre-flop with either of these, may have two pair TJ, a flush or strait draw with top pair most likely.
We are still beating a lot of hands here. If I had the A of spades I could never fold this hand before the turn so I would call. If you did fold you live on. If you raised all-in you only get called by a better hand. I consider that you are in danger and as the hand is not playing the way you wanted folding makes most sense.
Interested to know what others think about calling with the A of spades.
Posted Tue May 22, 2007 8:27 pm GMT by Ciso_B
The BB re raising here is saying he isnt concerned with our range of hands or Cutoffs, so imo its a powerhouse draw which we are racing to or two pair, with flush and striaght possibilities he can't really slowplay. I think its too likely BB has J-3,J-10,10-3,3-3 here to continue. Remember hes in the bb, which means any 2 pair on that flop is possible. Meh, I'm interested in knowing the outcome now lol.
Posted Tue May 22, 2007 8:41 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Ciso_B wrote: | | Quote: | | You only started with 26 big blinds so I wouldn't feel too bad about getting in here |
This is not a case for calling imo, cos 26 x bb in a tournament is not short stacked in a mtt at all, especially a live mtt where frequently FT average is like 8-12x bb. |
When you only have 26bbs your standards for getting all-in have to be lower than you would with 100 or whatever, reguardless of whether your stack is greater than average. It may be true that others play differently because of their smaller stacks and they should influence you, but being deep relative to the situation (a live MTT) doesn't make you deep and shouldn't drastically change your strategy.
Keep in mind an all-in raise is just over the pot size. There's a good chance you get looked up by worse hands. And there's a very good chance the BB raised an aggressive player's small bet with a hand worse than AA.
Posted Tue May 22, 2007 9:02 pm GMT by Ciso_B
I understand completely what you're saying but being that its a 4 way pot and the 1st guy lead 2nd re popped it 5 x his bet- I can't agree that A-A is ahead often enough to justify an all in here.
The point I was making about 26 x bb is that its a good situation to be in , in a mtt- and implying that you are not in anyway committed to playing out this hand.
Posted Wed May 23, 2007 2:51 am GMT by Eusebio
Nice discussion...
I had 2 problems in this situation
a) I didnt know how BB played. I was just moved to this table about 10-10 hands ago and seeing BB double up with a premium hand. eventhough he looked like a typical internetmaniac, he was just involved in this one pot... so no real info what his reraise could mean, but i knew that he would not need much to reraise the maniac in the SB (this guy took out 8 players in a row and had a stack of about 80.000, with the avg being like 12.000) I was pretty sure the BB had hit the flop and he seemed very confident, but he could have some weird hand like J3 or other stupid hands
b) the cutoff was still acting behind me. With what could the guy limp? what if he limped with suited connectors like JT or 89 of spades
So I took about 2 minutes, aks the dealer if I could keep the cards for later :D and after he denied i threw them in the muck...
Cutoff folded
Turn came a 
check check *sigh*
River 
check check
SB turns over Q9
BB shows J7 and wins the pot
I think my mistake was what suitedaces84 wrote:
| Quote: | | A lot depends on the payout structure |
166 Players 10 itm
at this point there were like 80-90 Players left and it would probably have been better to just go all-in and trying to double or triple my stack, but afterwards one is always smarter.
In fact the chips i didnt win here made it very difficult to survive, was shortstacked throughout the last 3 Levels and got it all in with 88 against AK (decided to call a raise and put the rest in on the flop, regardless whats down there) and the 3AA flop killed my hopes.
I really think that I this folded those aces made a huge difference...
afterwards I think I should have risk my tourneylife and go home early, to have a better shot at the money...
first 3 levels are 30 Minutes and then its just 20 minutes, so it doesnt really allow that you fold hands like   ....
Well at least i learned something for my 24€ 
Posted Wed May 23, 2007 8:35 am GMT by Ciso_B
The power of knowing your opponents really helps eh. If you stuck it in here and one of em showed a better hand than you - then you'd be in pretty bad shape and tbh what you expect with the action...
If you shoved in this hand , you're really playing guess poker imo - you said you werent sure of either opponents hand and with your stacksize even that 50-50 with pocket 8s looks more promising.
Posted Wed May 23, 2007 8:45 am GMT by UrAteUp
Nasty...makes you sick when you see the outcome and know you would have won. That's why I never limp with AA....NEVER!!! If I want to get tricky with AA then let me do it after I hit my set on the flop.
Posted Wed May 23, 2007 8:54 am GMT by MrDarling
I had once or twice limped with my big pairs (A's or K's) in live MTT 75% sure it will get raised.
In both cased it worked and I could have reraised. One time I doubled up to AK - poor guy flopped a K
second time it was battle of blinds I c/r AI. Guy called half his stack with A4s and of course, he rivered a str (board was 25Q43)
Posted Wed May 23, 2007 3:01 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Ciso_B wrote: | | The point I was making about 26 x bb is that its a good situation to be in , in a mtt- and implying that you are not in anyway committed to playing out this hand. |
I agree, moving in and folding are both decent options. You don't have to shove it, but if you did it wouldn't be out of line.
| Eusebio wrote: | 166 Players 10 itm
at this point there were like 80-90 Players left |
At this point you're a long way from the money so tournament chips nearly have a linear value (as chips do in a cash game). Given that, I'd just push.
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