Posted Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:16 am GMT by Phil14312
POKERSTARS GAME #10296154562: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($5/$10) - 2007/06/06 - 02:46:10 (ET)
Table 'Carina' 10-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 2: AHighRoller ($200 in chips)
Seat 3: celesteclub ($146 in chips)
Seat 4: theNorfman ($144 in chips)
Seat 6: Hot Fudge ($84.50 in chips)
Seat 10: Chipburnner ($194 in chips)
Chipburnner: posts small blind $2
AHighRoller: posts big blind $5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to celesteclub  
celesteclub: raises $5 to $10
theNorfman: folds
Hot Fudge: calls $10
Chipburnner: calls $8
AHighRoller: folds
*** FLOP ***   
Chipburnner: checks
celesteclub: bets $5
Hot Fudge: folds
Chipburnner: calls $5
*** TURN *** 
Chipburnner: checks
celesteclub: checks
*** RIVER *** 
Chipburnner: bets $10
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Posted Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:09 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I don't see a call here being anything but spewage. Possibly raise if he is the type to bet/fold the river with A-high, but those players are rarer and rarer these days.
Posted Thu Jun 07, 2007 5:47 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
do u really think we are not good at least 1 out of 5 times here ?
Posted Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:01 am GMT by tame_deuces
The only thing that gives me pause is the fact that he bets the river as most hands which connect barely (pairs, ace high) would usually check and not bet. But there aren't that many busted draws that bet on this board, usually only something like 9T.
So I guess you can call vs some people here, but it def has to be someone you know pretty well, because alot of factors has to click in place (what he calls with from SB preflop, how he plays draws/jack here, what he bets the river with).
Posted Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:10 am GMT by Dave B
6 handed when you check the turn, he will nearly frequently bet the river.
A couple thoughts, I dont call the river because I dont want the table to know that I raised with K9. I would limp with K9, but not raise with it.
Anyother thing I have been working on is doing a better job controlling pot sizes. When you raise preflop and make the continuation bet, your opponent is getting a pretty good price to call. I still try to mix things up, but I frequently check the flop and bet the turn when I limped in LP or made the preflop raise.
This has several advantages: his odds are worse to call on a draw with the bigger turn bet, you can save a bet if he bets into you and you dont think you are ahead, it looks like you hit big on the flop and are inducing a bluff.
Also I fold here because I dont like my showdown value. Anytime a SB called 2 bets out of position, I think he has a pocket pair or at least Ax.
Posted Thu Jun 07, 2007 1:59 pm GMT by Phil14312
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | I don't see a call here being anything but spewage. Possibly raise if he is the type to bet/fold the river with A-high, but those players are rarer and rarer these days. |
Is he really betting ace high here on the river?
Posted Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:00 pm GMT by Phil14312
What if the opponent is the type to peel with a lot of hands here looking to pair up as this board is so dry.
But what if I said he also probably plays a jack the same way.
What if he's passive? Aggressive?
Posted Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:26 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Phil14312 wrote: | | What if he's passive? |
That's a pretty easy fold every time. I assumed we were talking about an aggressive opponent here, because that's the only way you could think of calling.
Posted Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:40 pm GMT by jeffonline
As played I would fold, I think you are behind and unless your willing to put a big one out there like $30+. I don’t see the need to call. Looks like AT AQ or poss A8 to me. He may have missed the str8 draw but would he draw on a paired board.
Posted Fri Jun 08, 2007 9:00 am GMT by UrAteUp
I have been playing more limit poker these days. Always glad to read one of your posts Phil on limit. From my limited limit experience I think your giving away money here. Lay it down and don't waste your $$ to find out he has a pp or an A high.
Posted Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:50 pm GMT by Phil14312
| jeffonline wrote: | | As played I would fold, I think you are behind and unless your willing to put a big one out there like $30+. I don’t see the need to call. Looks like AT AQ or poss A8 to me. He may have missed the str8 draw but would he draw on a paired board. |
Its limit, no big one allowed.
Posted Fri Jun 08, 2007 12:53 pm GMT by Phil14312
| UrAteUp wrote: | | I have been playing more limit poker these days. Always glad to read one of your posts Phil on limit. From my limited limit experience I think your giving away money here. Lay it down and don't waste your $$ to find out he has a pp or an A high. |
Here is kinda the point of the post. Why would any villain be betting ace high? To bluff...no, to value-bet? No. No sane villain thinks I have a pair, therefore he will check and call with ace high. The only hands he bets here are a Jack, 8, 99, TT, maybe 77. But I'd expect a raise with 99 or TT. Therefore his range of betting is small.
The other hands he bets are hands he cannot show down, such as QT, T9, and other sorts of trash he is peeling with on the flop.
On this specific board, I think I would call here 90% of the time with Ace high. But, I only have King high, and a crappy King at that.
This board makes him bet a lot of hands I beat and check a lot of hands I don't, so if he checked, I wouldn't bet, but since he bet, I called, does that make sense? I did call, but I don't want to spoil any more discussion by saying whether I won or lost.
Posted Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:18 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Probably a minor point, but reading this again I have a question. Why not bet the turn? I can understand if you had some sort of showdown value and wanted to try to get there cheap, but you've really got no hand at all on the turn.
If you were sitting on an 8, 5 or a smaller pair, then a check behind on the turn with a bluff-catcher call on the river makes a lot of sense. But in this situation, I'd prefer to take a stab at it on the turn, folding to a raise, and then hope to check behind on the river.
Posted Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:18 pm GMT by Phil14312
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | Probably a minor point, but reading this again I have a question. Why not bet the turn? I can understand if you had some sort of showdown value and wanted to try to get there cheap, but you've really got no hand at all on the turn.
If you were sitting on an 8, 5 or a smaller pair, then a check behind on the turn with a bluff-catcher call on the river makes a lot of sense. But in this situation, I'd prefer to take a stab at it on the turn, folding to a raise, and then hope to check behind on the river. |
A combination of things. This particular opponent would not be folding a pair or an ace here, like ever. I felt that I would have no idea what type of hand he has on the turn with a bet. And therefore, would be lost on the river if I should bluff or just check.
However, what his action is on the river in relation to whatever particular card fell, I could narrow down his hand range. Like I said before, once the river blanks, a bet is weak and a check is strong, generally.
I guess it was more a feel thing, I typically bet the turn here as well, however, I have been doing more "turn value checks," as described in Stoxtrader's new 2+2 book. Basically, checking the turn to induce a bluff on the river. Its also nice b/c if he doesn't have a jack and I'm behind, I usually have 6 outs to catch up. Plus, its always good to show that I'm not gonna be pushed around when I check a turn. Making people bluff less against you is a very very good thing.
Posted Fri Jun 08, 2007 2:53 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Phil14312 wrote: | | I guess it was more a feel thing, I typically bet the turn here as well, however, I have been doing more "turn value checks," as described in Stoxtrader's new 2+2 book. Basically, checking the turn to induce a bluff on the river. |
I think you'd like to have a hand that's a *little* stronger than this one. Not much, but I'd rather not induce a bluff when I'm holding K-high.
| Phil14312 wrote: | | Its also nice b/c if he doesn't have a jack and I'm behind, I usually have 6 outs to catch up. Plus, its always good to show that I'm not gonna be pushed around when I check a turn. Making people bluff less against you is a very very good thing. |
If you're going to call the river when you miss and your hand has as little showdown value as yours does in this case, then not betting the turn is pretty awful. You might as well bet the turn and try to win it.
I understand the point he's trying to make, but I think you're misapplying it to this situation.
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