TheSalche returns ... with a limit hand? |
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Posted Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:11 pm GMT by TheSalche
$1 - $3 spread limit Rockford charity games beginners table. Playing like a normal low limit game, middle pair winning most pots, etc. Most bets after the flop are the max ($3), preflop raise to $4 all day is very standard.
UTG is a solid player, younger kind than me (18 or 19) wearing sunglasses, talking a bit to his friends but focused.
CO, BTN - donkeys, tend to be calling stations and try to pull bluffs too often.
me - I haven't been playing many hands, maybe seen two or three flops out of twenty (not including walks on BB). Don't know how my image is, but I haven't been talking much except to a guy next to me.
UTG raises to $4, I call with 10h 8h, CO and BTN call, blinds fold, 4 to the flop
Flop: Qx 9h, 4h
UTG bets, I raise ...
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Posted Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:16 pm GMT by Phil14312
I don't really like either street. I wouldn't be playing suited connectors for a raise in MP, especially in that structure of a game, where the preflop raise is the basically the max bet, you can't make up double bets on the big street.
I also don't like raising with only a flush draw. As you are pretty much guessing he doesn't have AQ, KQ, AA, KK, QQ, or another PP he is going to call down with.
Posted Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:53 am GMT by fiezk
He has a gutter too. Very standard on the flop.
Easy fold pf.
Posted Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:53 am GMT by UrAteUp
Not sure I agree with you Phil. I think this hand has much merit for the Salche with this flop but not sure I would have raised post flop. Call and wait for the  for the flush or the straight.
Posted Wed Jun 20, 2007 9:31 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Fold preflop. Raise on the flop is fine. If you were only drawing at a flush, then I'd call since better hearts aren't folding, even to a raise.
With a raise, you're hoping to fold out hands like KJ, 98 and T9 behind you. You still need to catch to beat the bettor, so ideally, CO and button fold and you get a free turn card. If UTG is smart though, he's probably donkbetting the turn if all the draws miss.
*edit* Structure matters a lot here (thanks Phil, I need to read more carefully). I like your preflop call even less, and you're no longer getting a "free card" with your raise since you're paying the full bet now, instead of on the turn. I probably still raise though, since the other reasons are still valid. *edit*
Posted Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:50 pm GMT by TheSalche
Yeah preflop call was pretty nasty, and afterwards I realized the flop raise was horrible because I wanted action behind me. Need to get more used to this limit stuff =/
Well the CO and BTN folded, UTG 3bet me, I called. Turned the flush, he bet, I raised, he called. River paired the board, he bet, I called and he showed QQ.
Posted Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:10 pm GMT by JD999
| Phil14312 wrote: | I don't really like either street. I wouldn't be playing suited connectors for a raise in MP, especially in that structure of a game, where the preflop raise is the basically the max bet, you can't make up double bets on the big street.
I also don't like raising with only a flush draw. As you are pretty much guessing he doesn't have AQ, KQ, AA, KK, QQ, or another PP he is going to call down with. |
You're right the call with 10 8s in face of a raise maybe wasn't the best play but...He didn't just have a flush draw, he had a gutshot straight draw to a jack. And I like raising with a draw, because it does two things. 1) Gets rid of missed hands allowing you to win the pot right there. You are still behind missed hands with 10 high, but a raise may get rid of a missed Ace. 2) If the person calls, you are building the pot up so if a heart or jack hits, you have a bigger pot. This allows for bigger bets and bigger calls--> therefore more money in your chipstack.
Posted Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:36 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| JD999 wrote: | | 2) If the person calls, you are building the pot up so if a heart or jack hits, you have a bigger pot. This allows for bigger bets and bigger calls--> therefore more money in your chipstack. |
It's fixed limit, and spread limit at that. There *are* no bigger bets in that structure. That's why the flop raise is questionable. In a standard FL game structure, the raise makes more sense.
Part of the reason for raising in position on the flop with a draw is to hopefully have it checked to you on the turn. You spend an extra small bet on the flop to avoid calling a bigger bet on the turn when you miss. Since the flop bet is the same size as the turn bet, you're not saving money. You're just spending it a street earlier.
Posted Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:01 am GMT by TheSalche
Sean,
For arguements sake let's say my preflop call was reasonable, and this is a say a $2/$4 limit game, should I be raising that flop or should I call hoping to induce action from the CO and BTN instead of making them cold call two bets?
Posted Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:17 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| TheSalche wrote: | Sean,
For arguements sake let's say my preflop call was reasonable, and this is a say a $2/$4 limit game, should I be raising that flop or should I call hoping to induce action from the CO and BTN instead of making them cold call two bets? |
I'd raise because it's more likely the people behind are holding the types of hands I mentioned before (KJ,T9,98) than two hearts that probably aren't going to fold here anyway. You'll find out pretty quickly how strong your draw is if either player behind you calls two cold with UTG still left to answer.
Of course, I could be giving these types of players far too much credit.
Posted Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:35 am GMT by Phil14312
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | TheSalche wrote: | Sean,
For arguements sake let's say my preflop call was reasonable, and this is a say a $2/$4 limit game, should I be raising that flop or should I call hoping to induce action from the CO and BTN instead of making them cold call two bets? |
I'd raise because it's more likely the people behind are holding the types of hands I mentioned before (KJ,T9,98) than two hearts that probably aren't going to fold here anyway. You'll find out pretty quickly how strong your draw is if either player behind you calls two cold with UTG still left to answer.
Of course, I could be giving these types of players far too much credit. |
At a slightly bigger game, maybe. But in 2/4, having guys call two cold behind you tells you, well, nothing about what they have.
In low-limit live games, stop trying to play fancy, call when you have a draw and raise when you have the best hand, its really simple. The most fancy I get is to make a free card play, which I would've on this hand had we been last to act, but we are not, another reason it is much less profitable to play hands like T8 suited up front.
Posted Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:25 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Phil14312 wrote: | | In low-limit live games, stop trying to play fancy, call when you have a draw and raise when you have the best hand, its really simple. |
You're leaving money on the table when you do that. If we're making the assumption that the two left to act will call two-cold with much worse than what I described, I could make an argument that we're raising for value.
Posted Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:15 am GMT by Phil14312
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | Phil14312 wrote: | | In low-limit live games, stop trying to play fancy, call when you have a draw and raise when you have the best hand, its really simple. |
You're leaving money on the table when you do that. If we're making the assumption that the two left to act will call two-cold with much worse than what I described, I could make an argument that we're raising for value. |
I agree with everything you've said, except I much much much prefer to be last to act on hands like that. If I'm not, I do think they become much less profitable.
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