Posted Tue May 11, 2004 9:39 am GMT by benman2002
ok so doyle likes playing these mid suited connectors such as 8h9h, 6s7s
but what i dont really get it what is the need for them to be suited?if u get the flush it has a very weak kicker. it seems like a much better hand for a strait draw then a flush draw.
what are ur thoughts on this?
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Posted Tue May 11, 2004 9:44 am GMT by Dave B
I think the point is that either a str8 draw or a flush draw alone is worthless. But w/ the options on each (as will as flopping 2 pair, or trips) then there starts to be some value there. Personally, under most circumstances I muck suited connecters below 89.
BTW-if you see people calling or even raising w/ hands like 39 suited, they are either an awesome player or a total idiot. Watch them closely!
Posted Tue May 11, 2004 2:43 pm GMT by Supersquid191
I agree. Its giving you more outs. You can draw to a flush or a straight (either one is a decent hand), and if your really lucky you could hit a straight flush. If they're not suited, you only have a straight draw and thus reduce your odds of making a decent hand.
I would only play something like 67suited if I was one of the last to act and with few people in the pot. They pay off big if they hit, but the chance of an overcard coming it pretty high. If the flop comes something like KJ4 mixsuited, your in bad position because the odds are some out there will stay with K or J and you should get out as soon as possible.
Posted Tue May 11, 2004 3:17 pm GMT by MasterShake
I play suited connectors 67 and above as semi-bluff preflop hands when I'm trying to stay aggressive in a hand. You can make a good sized bet at a tight table and push out a lot of players. If you get raised, then you can fold. If you get called, you'll get a playable flop more often than a ragged pocket and maybe make out on the end. It's a good blind stealing hand in my opinion.
Posted Tue May 11, 2004 3:19 pm GMT by benman2002
yeah sure you get more outs...but....
so say you get in with 6s7s, if you get a 345 then you have a very good hand. but if you get say 4s,8s,Ks then you would have to be very very careful with your 7 kicker.
Posted Tue May 11, 2004 3:38 pm GMT by saper88aa
Whats Doyle means is that with suited connected hands like 8 9 you find that if you flop the st8 you will often find that some has you beat.He likes the 6 7 becasue its a less obvious hand.You can flop a bettet st8,where ppl arent on top of you like with 8 9 or 10 j.And you can get lucky and backdoor 2 pair or trips if you miss the flush/st8
I like these hands as well.They have a good chance to flop a respectable draw and then you can make your hand.
Posted Tue May 11, 2004 3:48 pm GMT by MasterShake
But if you bet aggressively, you should have chased out anyone with lousy suited cards. So theoretically you would only be up against someone with a made hand or a very high flush draw. :D
Posted Wed May 12, 2004 1:58 pm GMT by Sente
How they play depends on what they are up against. And the flop (Duh). Against a higher suited connector of the same suit, you are in trouble. Making the flush on the flop isn't always ideal because a 4 flush will ruin you.
The reason for lower cards is that you want to be up against big cards (which is what people generally play). If the flop hits you it is going to miss everyone else. If the flop misses you, it probably hit them and you can get out of the hand.
This reminds of something I've thought about before. What hand has the best chance of beating AA? Pair are dominated (18% or so or winning). AK is dominated, no better than 27o here. Ah, straights and flushes are the key. So we move onto suited connectors. KQs has only 17.5% chance of winning. Two pair can be beat by Broadway. Someone holding rockets takes away 2 of your straight making cards. Lower cards give you more possible straights in both directions. Keep going lower until none of your winning hands can run into Broadway. QJs 19.5%, JTs 21.5%, T9s 22.6%, 98s 22.4%, 87s 22.9%. And there is your winner along with 76s and 65s which are tied with 87s.
So you say that 23% is bad and so it is. That is heads-up. Suited connectors thrive in multi-way pots. Add more big cards hand into the mix and your odds of winning drop only a little bit. And due to the bunching effect, can actually increase (somone holding say AK takes away one of AA's outs) in some cases. If you make your hand, if you beat one you will almost certainly beat them all. With 4 people in the pot, you still have more than 20% of winning and can proceed.
The two problem hands are the higher suited holding and having someone on top of your straight. The dynamics do differ if people aren't playing high cards. If there is a pre-flop raise, that is you would expect people to be holding big cards. We all know that isn't always the case.
The ideal flop is to get a straight draw AND a flush draw (or straight flush draw) which gives you 15 outs to make one or the other. You would actually be the favorite to win the hand over top pair or overpair.
Posted Thu May 13, 2004 3:13 pm GMT by mangothebear
MasterShake:
Raising with low suited connectors before the flop is not a semi-bluff. It's a bluff, and a suicidal one at that. What it does is knock a lot of people out of the pot, so that if you do catch your flush or straight, you don't make a lot of money (especially because someone with overcards will not call with a 3 flush or 3 straight on the board). However, if you don't catch your draw (which will be most of the time), it will become really expensive (you lose your raise and any subsequent calls you make chasing). The reward for bluffing everyone (which is rare) and stealing the blinds is very low.
With low suited connectors, you WANT a lot of callers to build up the pot and give you the proper pot odds/implied odds. Otherwise, you throw that hand away. If the flop gives you a flush draw (2 of that suit on the board), THEN you can make your semi-bluff with the hope of catching your card (almost 40% chance of hitting it in the next two cards). Don't worry so much about the chance that someone else will get a higher flush unless there is a four card flush on the board. You hold 2 cards of that suit and there are 2 cards on the board. If someone else is holding 2 cards of that suit as well, there's only 7 cards left out of 47 (around 30% chance in the last 2 cards) that you both will hit your flush. If there IS some reason to think this is what they're holding, you should fold.
Before the flop, you can't even begin to calculate your odds of getting a flush draw, let alone your flush. The key is to play it if its cheap (no raises) and if there are a lot of people calling (implied odds). You can't know this if you're in early position, so you should fold unless you're in late position/blinds.
Keep raising those low suited connectors before the flop is a fast way to go broke.
Posted Thu May 13, 2004 4:05 pm GMT by MasterShake
Maybe you missed the end of my post then mango. I use it as a BLIND STEALING hand. I don't play them very often, but when I do, I play it aggressively to try and steal the blinds.
EDIT: Although calling it a semi-bluff was bad wording on my part. :D
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