Posted Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:21 pm GMT by HalfSugar
Here is a classic Omaha-8 spot which I find quite hard to know what to do with. Unfortunately, given the limits, the hand is not exactly indicative of how it would normally be played I am sure but the premise will exist at all levels and I need some basic advice if I'm ever going to improve.
Here is the scenario - I'll paste the HH in a few bits with narrative in between:
PokerStars Game #29810310610: HORSE (Omaha Hi/Lo Limit, $0.10/$0.20) - 2009/06/26 16:10:37 ET
Table 'Aquarius V' 8-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: GenoTHP ($8.01 in chips)
Seat 2: mechanic58 ($4.96 in chips)
Seat 3: SlyJeff ($9.18 in chips)
Seat 4: Arska78 ($8.98 in chips)
Seat 5: itsasizar ($0.35 in chips)
Seat 6: cricrifair ($4.55 in chips)
Seat 7: Homo87 ($6.09 in chips)
Seat 8: Astor34 ($2.21 in chips)
Astor34: posts small blind $0.05
GenoTHP: posts big blind $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to GenoTHP    
mechanic58: calls $0.10
SlyJeff: folds
Arska78: calls $0.10
itsasizar: calls $0.10
cricrifair: calls $0.10
Homo87: calls $0.10
Astor34: calls $0.05
GenoTHP: checks
*** FLOP ***   
OK so I'm in the BB with a garbage hand which I've managed to check and I've flopped the nuts. However, I have no way of making a winning low (well maybe there is a 0.1% shot!) and my high can only get worse if the wrong cards peel off.
My logic here is to just jam the pot every chance I get on the flop to get rid of any backdoor and/or higher straightening cards. First of all, that's right......right?
Here is the action:
Astor34: bets $0.10
GenoTHP: raises $0.10 to $0.20
mechanic58: calls $0.20
Arska78: folds
itsasizar: calls $0.20
cricrifair: calls $0.20
Homo87: calls $0.20
Astor34: calls $0.10
*** TURN *** 
So the turn is a blank from my point of view and so it goes:
Astor34: checks
GenoTHP: bets $0.20
mechanic58: calls $0.20
itsasizar: calls $0.05 and is all-in
cricrifair: calls $0.20
Homo87: calls $0.20
Astor34: calls $0.20
*** RIVER *** 
Obviously that river bothers me even though no-one raised on the flop indicating that perhaps a set is unlikely here. However, I figure there is no point doing anything other than check/calling? Again, would you agree or is it impossible to tell at this donk level where reads are virtually moot?
The action finished:
Astor34: checks
GenoTHP: checks
mechanic58: bets $0.20
cricrifair: calls $0.20
Homo87: folds
Astor34: calls $0.20
GenoTHP: calls $0.20
Obviously can't fold here assuming they are betting the low rather than a boat (plus obv pot size)
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mechanic58: shows     (HI: three of a kind, Threes; LO: 8,6,4,3,A)
cricrifair: mucks hand
Astor34: mucks hand
GenoTHP: shows (HI: a straight, Four to Eight; LO: 7,6,5,4,3)
GenoTHP collected $0.74 from side pot
GenoTHP collected $0.73 from side pot
itsasizar: shows     (HI: a full house, Eights full of Threes; LO: 8,6,4,3,A)
itsasizar collected $1.05 from main pot
GenoTHP collected $1.05 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.75 Main pot $2.10. Side pot $1.47. | Rake $0.18
Board
Seat 1: GenoTHP (big blind) showed and won ($2.52) with HI: a straight, Four to Eight; LO: 7,6,5,4,3
Seat 2: mechanic58 showed and lost with HI: three of a kind, Threes; LO: 8,6,4,3,A
Seat 3: SlyJeff folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Arska78 folded on the Flop
Seat 5: itsasizar showed and won ($1.05) with HI: a full house, Eights full of Threes; LO: 8,6,4,3,A
Seat 6: cricrifair mucked    
Seat 7: Homo87 (button) folded on the River
Seat 8: Astor34 (small blind) mucked    
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Posted Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:38 pm GMT by Assistance
great post that is well detailed
the logic of jamming the pot would be correct but not in this case. with 3 main reasons, position,level and the board.
your 2nd to act and it being a limit game you wont be able to push anyone out and with your open you have given everyone further down the line odds to call.
with that board it looks harmless for PLO but not Hi/Lo
all the lows A23 will come along and probably play down to the river knowing 2 players are gunning for straights.
I agree with your statement about reads at that level in a multi way pot, although you can still use reads at the donk level. What I wouldn't agree on is not giving real concern to a full house.
the unfortunate thing on this hand is the level it is being played at. If it was played at a higher level you would see how getting away, even possibly on the check/fold flop is mathematically the right play.
Omaha is about showdowns, so sometimes you really do need to give yourself the excuse to fold the best hand on flops or turns knowing the improvement value is not there, which is reverse implied odds.
Posted Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:10 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I would bet/call the river.
| Quote: | your 2nd to act and it being a limit game you wont be able to push anyone out and with your open you have given everyone further down the line odds to call.
with that board it looks harmless for PLO but not Hi/Lo
all the lows A23 will come along and probably play down to the river knowing 2 players are gunning for straights.
|
Actually, this board is significantly better in O8 than Omaha high because far more hands are likely to call us down than would in a pure high game.
Jamming the pot for value when you have the nuts for high in a multiway pot is the only way to play it in O8. Whatever gets the most bets in is best. There will be times when you get quartered, but it doesn't happen nearly as often on the high side as on the low. You want to extract a lot of bets from players who are chasing worse high hands.
Posted Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:25 pm GMT by HalfSugar
Thanks for the replies guys.
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: |
Jamming the pot for value when you have the nuts for high in a multiway pot is the only way to play it in O8. Whatever gets the most bets in is best. There will be times when you get quartered, but it doesn't happen nearly as often on the high side as on the low. You want to extract a lot of bets from players who are chasing worse high hands. |
That was always my logic since I was merely gunning for the high. If it were HU, I'd play it quite differently but given that it's a multiway pot, every bet I get in there from anyone who doesn't make the best low/a better high gains me more. In fact, five ways up, even if someone else is smuggling 57XX to chop the high side with me, it's still profitable to bet as long as all 4 opponents call.
Obviously I am very capable of laying this down on the turn to aggression in the face of a paired board or a 9/T but jamming the flop seems right to me, as does calling the river once the pot becomes so large.
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: |
I would bet/call the river. |
Would you still call if raised? I guess you'd have to make the crying call in a pot that size. Of course, since I'm leading the river and it's still 4-handed, there is a chance it is raised and re-raised before it gets back to me in which case it ends up being a fold. Granted, if that happens, a check/call likely isn't going to get through but I wonder if betting the river is profitable enough times to warrant it?
| Assistance wrote: |
I agree with your statement about reads at that level in a multi way pot, although you can still use reads at the donk level. What I wouldn't agree on is not giving real concern to a full house. |
I think by the time the board pairs in this scenario, a call is necesary. Had it paired on the turn, the outcome would have been quite different.
Posted Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:42 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| Quote: | | Would you still call if raised? I guess you'd have to make the crying call in a pot that size. |
Yeah, plus people do weird things like raise with A2 in this spot.
| Quote: | | but I wonder if betting the river is profitable enough times to warrant it? |
Absolutely, since almost any hand like two pair, trips, lower straight will always call at least one bet but might not bet themselves.
Posted Fri Jun 26, 2009 8:45 pm GMT by HalfSugar
The proof of a good Omaha/Stud player is playing non-nut hands. I think something I need to learn is not giving up as soon as my hand loses some value. That said, I don't want to go too far the other way and start spewing chips! I do enjoy the challenge of non-holdem games 
Posted Sat Jun 27, 2009 12:22 am GMT by Assistance
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: |
| Quote: | your 2nd to act and it being a limit game you wont be able to push anyone out and with your open you have given everyone further down the line odds to call.
with that board it looks harmless for PLO but not Hi/Lo
all the lows A23 will come along and probably play down to the river knowing 2 players are gunning for straights.
|
Actually, this board is significantly better in O8 than Omaha high because far more hands are likely to call us down than would in a pure high game. |
that is my point
Posted Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:04 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
When we have the nuts for high, and there are more than two players in the pot, we win money every time they put a chip in the pot (because we are getting at least half the pot a large percentage of the time).
Why do we not want them to call down?
Posted Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:51 am GMT by Assistance
the nuts eh? sorry I thought I seen a full house
math is useless at this level of donkey poker
but like you asked, if your going to want to get better, this hand is the perfect example of why knowing math will save you money in the long run. "equity" and "reverse implied"
Omaha Hi Low is about the scoop
any player who plays for 1/2 a pot is a long term losing player
(ie Rake Rape)
| Code: | PLO Hi/Lo Tournament hands dealt: 6434
Hands Won: (24.8%) Win if Flop Seen: (43.3%) |
^must be luck
Posted Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:02 am GMT by HalfSugar
| Assistance wrote: |
Omaha Hi Low is about the scoop
any player who plays for 1/2 a pot is a long term losing player
(ie Rake Rape) |
I completely agree but you have to remember that in this hand, I had checed the BB with four cards I would muck in every other spot and then lucked out for the current high nuts. That of course put me in a weird spot I would never normally be in which is why I started the discussion.
Also, playing for half the pot vs 4 other players IS profitable, it's again just a very unusual spot to be in! Weird hand
Posted Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:49 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
| Assistance wrote: | | the nuts eh? sorry I thought I seen a full house |
Not until the river. And it's unlikely given the betting that someone actually had a set. You want to not bet and let people draw to worse hands for free?/quote
| Quote: | math is useless at this level of donkey poker
but like you asked, if your going to want to get better, this hand is the perfect example of why knowing math will save you money in the long run. "equity" and "reverse implied" |
This is wrong. If we had, say, the bottom end of the straight or there was a flush draw on the flop, you might have a point, but with our trash hand, this is as good as it gets, and it's foolish not to try and make money. It's not as though we have some weak hand like two pair with huge RIO against it--we have a really good straight that is unlikely to be cracked by another straight card (because it's a middle straight, and most players don't play a lot of hands with 9's or 10's in them), but is liable to be called down in multiple spots, winning us money in the long run.
When there are more than two players in the pot, you make a profit by winning half the pot. Yes, Split pot games are all about the scoop. I know this, and I even make a point of mentioning it on everything I've written about them. But when it isn't possible to win both (or unlikely), it's foolish to pass up money-making opportunities by winning half.
Posted Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:34 pm GMT by Assistance
hey guys
when your playing .05/.10 blinds with 8 players
and you see 6-8 go to showdowns don't expect the flopped nuts is the nuts at the end.
If you looking for discussion on how to improve to go up to higher levels, and you see 6-8 players go to a showdown and you think your flopped hand will always hold up your mistaken... which is my point...
1. I understand this is noob level
2. I understand it is limit poker
3. I understand it is a weird situation
which none of that has to do with what I am saying
but what do I know?
I bluff when I have position and that is "horrible advice".
Posted Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:38 pm GMT by HalfSugar
| Assistance wrote: | hey guys
when your playing .05/.10 blinds with 8 players
and you see 6-8 go to showdowns don't expect the flopped nuts is the nuts at the end.
|
I've now put in enough man hours at this level to know that most flops in O8 are less than 4 way so this indeed was a very strange situation. You'll just have to trust me on that I guess.
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