Help! Live games eating me alive... |
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Posted Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:43 pm GMT by -J.
Okay, so I've been playing poker casually for about six months now. Most of this time I've spent playing ring games for play money. About two months ago I discovered the "Sit & Go" style games, also for play money, and have been playing those exclusively ever since.
In the ring games I played well, almost always walking away with a profit, and in the SNG's I'm doing great: I win almost every game I play. As you can imagine, being new to the game and doing so well makes it difficult to resist thinking a bit highly of myself.
Well this seemingly "natural ability" to win at poker got me excited enough to set up a few live games with some family. To date we've played three times and all three times I've done terrible. Furthermore, they don't really play poker that much, some of them not at all, and yet I lose to them!
This, now elusive, "natural ability" also convinced me to find some local games to play in an effort to win some real money. I found one. I played. I lost terribly.
What the hell?
This is quite confusing to me and, honestly, the only answer I can come up with is, "None of these people know what the hell they're doing!" I would blame it on the cards (I got bad cards all night) but when I play online my cards almost never matter. I've learned to make the right bets at the right time against the right people and the result has been folds, folds, folds. These people never fold!
My review of the live game I played: I got crap cards all night. People called huge bets with terrible hands. It was impossible to gain control because nobody seemed to fear losing.
My review of the live games with family: I got crap cards all night. Nobody calls anything so I never make money. Then they get a monster flop and rape me.
My review of how my online games go: My cards almost never matter. The use of betting to control what my opponents "know" is everything. Any cards can win if I read my opponent accurately, can convince him that he's reading me accurately, and then use that dynamic to make him fold.
I don't know what it is but I'm sure this is normal so I'm sure you guys can advise me. Do I just need to play tight as hell in these live games? Is the issue that they aren't paying attention to me enough to fear my bet? Does the alcohol they're drinking embolden them to the point of victory? If any of you have ever read Clausewitz's "On War" then you should be familiar with how large a role boldness plays in winning battles. Sometimes I wonder if their stupidity, which equates to "unguided boldness," actually helps them against smart players. Does it even make sense to think that you can win against good players and lose against bad ones? Am I just too eager to believe in myself too soon? Are live games really this different?
One other thing I'd like opinions on is how the live game I played at the bar was set up. It was, in my opinion, complete bullshit. First, everyone starts with 1200 chips. Okay. But then if you buy food - you get more chips?! You get 1,000 for spending over $10; you get 500 for each drink you buy; AND you can buy more food, and get more chips, at any point during the game. Is this not complete bullshit? Does this not completely debauch the essence of a tournament? To have someone down to 4 BB's - IN A TOURNAMENT - call a waitress over, order a plate of nachos, and suddenly have 50 BB's?!
Sorry if this sounds whiny but that's kinda the point: I'm pissed at myself for loosing so bad, I'm pissed at how the game was run, and I'm pissed because I cannot honestly assess the situation on my own.
Please help! Thanks!
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Posted Wed Jul 15, 2009 2:35 am GMT by supafrey
Okay a bar is not trying to set up the "perfect" tourney with the "perfect" structure.. they're trying to sell food and beer and make everyone have a good time. Selling chips for fries and cokes is great business and totally reasonable. If anything, adding a bit of luck to these tournaments just makes good business sense.
As for playing against live donks, search these forums on how to maximize winning against "bad players". This topic has been done dozens of times. Anything about how to be positive expectation at "low limit games" would be useful right now. You should be ecstatic when you're playing for cash against terrible players, not disappointed.
Posted Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:54 am GMT by Ciso_B
lol at that bar talk, that was good.
Seriously though, sounds like you need to calm down. It's good you wanna win in the live games you play, but don't put too much pressure on your self,and, yes, tight play is most definitely the right away against live loose fishes. Don't try fancy moves against ppl who dont know what they're doing, it ll go over their head.
Show em a hand over and over, dont bluff, unless its a weak tight player.
Also, online and live are different playing fields imo. You can't expect lines/style to work exactly same all time in both "arenas".
Best advice i can give is - understand the type of opponent your facing, and think/devise a style or strategy that ll be effective. If you have lags to your left who think A-5 is the nuts, lockdown poker.
If you have ppl who ccan be be pushed around, steal their bb till you think they will fight back, then change.
Basically if you wanna be good -J , you have to adapt,not to dispirit you, but it sounded like you were beating freerolls? Or play money sngs?
Don't read too much into beating them,people are really atrocious there and you can't truly gage your ability by lookin at play money results.
study, play,study,play,play,play,study,talk,talk,whine  ,play,play,win.
^ This is how you become a winning/(competent) poker player from my experience.
Posted Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:29 pm GMT by Kemics
i think this point needs to be stressed WAY more. Play money is no place to learn poker or gauge skill. Its only use is to get used to the software or learn how to play. By which i mean, flush beats straight etc level of learning.
The best thing imo for getting better is read books. Personally i cant recommend the harrington series of books as the starting place.
| Quote: | | study, play,study,play,play,play,study,talk,talk,whine Smile,play,play,win |
you're already at whining, only 4 more stages till success 
| Quote: | | If any of you have ever read Clausewitz's "On War" then you should be familiar with how large a role boldness plays in winning battles. Sometimes I wonder if their stupidity, which equates to "unguided boldness," actually helps them against smart players. |
Or perhaps it is as Sun-Tze theorises that all war is deception and they act strong when they are weak, carefully manipulating a constructed table image 
Posted Wed Jul 15, 2009 3:51 pm GMT by -J.
Thanks for your replies!
I'm definitely not dispirited by the need to adapt. I personally believe that the ability to adapt is the core mechanism of survival in all aspects of life. I try to bring that mindset to everything I do, including poker.
From the advice offered so far I have derived the following tenets:
• calm down, don't put too much pressure on myself
• don't expect professionalism from games hosted in bars, homes, etc.
• play tight and spare the fancy stuff when playing against donks
• show my strong hands to the donks to build an image that they'll fear
• remain adaptive always
• read poker books
• play, play, play
• don't judge my skill based on play money game results
All of these I can do immediately but with one exception: since I live in a state that doesn't allow gambling, online or live, playing for money isn't really an option for me. It seems the best I can do is play in these freeroll, promotional type events. Now, I'm not afraid to break the law, per se, but I would like to avoid that if at all possible, lol...
Suggestions?
Also, I ordered Harrington's Vol. 1 the other day. I'm confused now, though, by Kemics's statement, "Personally i cant recommend the harrington series of books as the starting place." Was this a typo or do you really mean to say his books are not a good starting place? Everything I've read on forums and in customer reviews says exactly the opposite. Please clarify!
Posted Wed Jul 15, 2009 4:28 pm GMT by lwestatbus
I think that you are off to a good start in one important respect--you are performing self-analysis and it seems that you are being realistic about it.
Are you completely unable to play real money online poker where you live? I'm curious about the enforcement mechanism. How would you be caught? (And what are the consequences?) You really won't be able to hone your game until there are real money consequences for all concerned. And even then you don't know if the $2/$4 fixed limit game that is stretching your bankroll is a place for some drunk trust fund college kid to splash around for fun.
I'd like to add one more book recommendation which is Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth. While it is geared toward fixed limit it has some great philosophical insights that I don't think that the Harrington books do a great job of introducing. (Sort of like Harrington expected you to already know some of this stuff.)
Hang in there. It's fun as long as you aren't playing for the family farm.
Posted Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:23 pm GMT by -J.
Iwestatbus,
Thanks for your comments!
About the legalities of playing for money here, as far as I know, the main concern with playing online in the U.S. is having the government cancel the checks the websites send you when you cash out. I don't think they can punish you but they can definitely make your winnings disappear. As for live games, you can be arrested for gambling in home games and any establishment running actual money games will be shut down and fined.
I guess I could just accept the fact that I might lose the money when I cash out and agree to that condition upon depositing money in online games?
But you know what? All this talking about real money games versus play money games has got me thinking...
If my primary gaming environment is play money SNG's online and freeroll tournaments in local bars then why would I want to develop the skills for competing in real money games? Should not my skill set be tailored to the environment I play in?
I don't know why I didn't catch this earlier in the thread but there is definitely a fallacy involved in the suggestions for me to play real money games. The statement that "you can't judge your skills based on play money games" is impartial. What we're not seeing is the implication that I'm playing real money games, which I am not. In other words, what I have been told is in essence, "You can't judge your skills in real money games based on the result of your play money games." But I never asked for advice or skills for real money games; I asked for advice in live freerolls.
Sorry to muddy the waters just when the thread looked nearly complete but, as I said, I just now realized that some of the advice being given is actually inappropriate.
Comments?
P.S. I will put that "Small Stakes Hold'em" book on my list of books to get!
Posted Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:47 pm GMT by HalfSugar
Move to a better state ASAP.
Posted Wed Jul 15, 2009 6:53 pm GMT by supafrey
There is minimal strategy difference between micro stakes and free play stuff. If you want to win you generally have to play the same. The reason we're pushing for you to play for money is because once you get good at that the skills crossover easily to free/fun games... but it doesn't work the other way around.
Don't ever show your cards, good or bad, until you get muuuuch more comfortable with the game. There's no reason to and whatever information you "think" your opponents are using for/against you is probably wasted effort considering their caliber.
Reading the harrington books will put you a mile ahead of 99% of the players you're ever going to face in a freeroll and should give you a basic idea of how to handle different sng situations. It is not going to turn you in to a mtt pro but it sounds like you're not that interested in becoming that anyways.
Posted Wed Jul 15, 2009 7:57 pm GMT by Ciso_B
play money is really crap. Dont buy books or even bother to study if your ultimate goal is to beat play money sngs/tournaments. Cos it's wasting your money.You can beat them just by playin phils top 10 hands, there ya go, job done.
Posted Wed Jul 15, 2009 11:10 pm GMT by lwestatbus
| -J. wrote: | About the legalities of playing for money here, as far as I know, the main concern with playing online in the U.S. is having the government cancel the checks the websites send you when you cash out. I don't think they can punish you but they can definitely make your winnings disappear. As for live games, you can be arrested for gambling in home games and any establishment running actual money games will be shut down and fined.
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The sites that have persisted after the UIGA (Unlawful Internet Gambling Act) have a HUGE incentive to keep their customers happy. There is a pretty regular cat and mouse game between the sites and the various authorities. If you watch how much you have on deposit you'll be OK. If you put in $50 to start you're not out much more than dinner for two and you can play that for a while if you're careful. Pick a site and watch for first depositor reload bonuses.
| supafrey wrote: | | There is minimal strategy difference between micro stakes and free play stuff. If you want to win you generally have to play the same. The reason we're pushing for you to play for money is because once you get good at that the skills crossover easily to free/fun games... but it doesn't work the other way around. |
+1 to supa's comment.
Another thing about online is that it is just so convenient. I'm constantly amazed at how many people I'll play with who are from Las Vegas. If you only have a few minutes, you can play for a few minutes. Zippo travel, zippo putting clothes on.
Posted Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:54 pm GMT by -J.
Thanks for all the advice guys! I'm going to play a live freeroll again next Wednesday, keeping in mind the things you've all said. I'll update the thread next week with how it went, my thoughts, and any new questions... and definitely more whining. 
Oh, also, I think I'm going to make a deposit soon and play for real money, despite my presently suspicious opinion on the matter. I'll probably go back and forth between play and real to see if I can't discern the differences which you all speak of.
Thanks again!
Posted Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:07 am GMT by jimmer
| -J. wrote: | | I'll probably go back and forth between play and real to see if I can't discern the differences which you all speak of. |
I hounestly don't think this is the right thing to do. Even if you deposited $10 and played 1000 hands on the $0.01/$0.02 NLHE tables or entered the $0.10 SNG tourneys, you will probably notice the differance quite quickly.
No matter whether you are playing the $10NL or $1000 NL there are always going to be players of differnt abilities.
Posted Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:51 am GMT by Jonniedough
Im from the states
I have been playing online before and after the UIGA some sites wont allow US gamers, some credit cards wont allow a deposit. There are ways around these things.
I would check out the link section here and go to the (spam) site. They were giving out a free no deposit $100. They ask for a lot of info but its only so that you dont "cheat" their system. They are legit!
Cashing out is only a problem now. Your winnings wont disappear. There was a gentleman that won a "seat" in to the WSOP when he went to cash his check it bounced, he talked to the site they gave him his winnings back plus a "sorry about the hassle" credit. This seems to have happened to a few people from other forums and they have also had this happen and the poker room has been very understanding!
| Quote: |
study, play,study,play,play,play,study,talk,talk,whine Smile,play,play,win
you're already at whining, only 4 more stages till success Very Happy
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I was going to say there needed to be a few more whines in there but I think thats acccurate
Posted Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:49 pm GMT by mortaleclipse
personaly after reading a book by Hellmuth it kinda put a dink in my game. Not sure if its me or the book but I started trying things he suggested and it didnt work right in my style.
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