Posted Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:06 pm GMT by Replic
As a java programmer, I know that the algorithm for generating random number is not actually random- its all based upon a seed and the time of day. Considering I've seen many many similar hands on different tables at the same time, I wonder- how do the online poker rooms generate their cards? If it's using the same algorithms- a pattern can be discovered. I think...
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Posted Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:22 pm GMT by Remy
dont talk crazy  - there are so many possibilties it's untrue!
it could generate from any sum of numbers from the date/time including milliseconds. they could even several different algorithms rotating.
...but it is a nice thought
Posted Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:28 am GMT by snoogins47
If you could somehow crack their code and figure out the algorithms they use, you could always run a similar one and instantly know what cards are being dealt.
However, I'm sure that the sites aren't just using some simple random # seed. I'm sure they're doing all sorts of algorithms and permutations and multiplications and functions and mathehoojigs to ensure that no patterns are able to be found.
I mean, even in my extremely limited programming experience (QBasic, anyone?) I know of ways to make random number generation very very very difficult to track.
I mean, it's as simple as using multiple levels of seeding, and the like.
For instance, in Basic, if you just used the random number command, you would always see the same sequence. If you used the internal clock as a seed, you would see the same sequence if it were generated at the exact same time. However, due to the fact that these generations were often interrupted by whatever action the user was taking, this pattern was, without intense efforts, not going to be tracked by any user.
For instance... (Rambling alert, please skip if you're impatient) Now, you could use the milleseconds of the internal clock, to create one random number. Then, the the seconds could be used to seed another one, this time corresponding to different mathematical functions. Now, another is generated, seeded by millseconds again (after a miniscule pause), and these numbers are worked together using whatever function was decided on. Now, you repeat this five times, use the fifth as a seed to pick a number 1 through 4, each representing one of the earlier arrived-to seeds, use that, and seed the random number that gets displayed on screen.
(/ramble off)
That's a horribly little simple thing, that consisted of me rambling for a while, and nothing more. In fact, there would probably be discernable patterns from that if a computer were to track it enough. It's probably nowhere near good enough to pass any of these standards for RNG that the poker sites are held to. However, there ain't any way you'd be able to sit down, putz around, and be able to predict the outcome of that generation method with any degree of accuracy, without being able to copy the code and have a carbon copy of that program running concurrently.
Now, if you get your hands on a program that copies the Partypoker RNG algorithm somehow... well, I doubt you'd be talking to us here, taking away valuable time that you could be playing omniscient poker and working your way to an early retirement ;P
Posted Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:41 am GMT by Replic
Any way to rip the cards ahead of time? Such as the turn and river when it's still theflop?
Posted Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:13 am GMT by snoogins47
That's another thing I'm fairly certain really can't be done.
It'd be suicide for the poker rooms to send that information before it's required. In fact, I would assume that the only information sent to the client computer is your two hole cards, and whatever board cards are currently available. It would explain all the delays and so forth on showdown.
As for turn and river cards... I dunno, I haven't done any research or anything, but it would seem to me that the they're calculated before they're shown, as i believe the RNGs work to simulate specific orders of the cards in a deck. But I would assume that's also server-side information.
I don't know all that much about how these places operate, but I'd be willing to bet that the client computer is on a "need-to-know" basis as far as card information. If not, there could easily be programs tracking it.
Take the game Everquest for example. Considered "un-hackable," and of course a few people broke those barriers, but even so... on the fringe of the hacking was a very, very widely used program called Show EQ. It worked on the idea that even information you don't know as a player, is necessary to be in your computer in order for the game to function properly. This prog tapped into that information and displayed anything that might help out. The company said that it was detectable and bannable, but to the best of my knowledge, it was fairly rare for anybody to get in trouble for.
So, since in poker, there are many things that your client doesn't need to know in order to function, I'm sure they keep them as safeguarded as they can.
Posted Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:36 pm GMT by Jonniedough
too buzzed to read all the posts, but if anyone knew how and what the poker rooms did as their shuffle I dont think it would be shared due to the fact that, that person would benefit greatly from it. Second, there wouldnt be so many poker rooms if poeple know the answer
just my opinion
Posted Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:49 pm GMT by Replic
What kind of stuff would Show EQ show. Just curious...
Posted Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:02 pm GMT by snoogins47
Show EQ would show pretty much anything that may be considered useful, that your client had to 'know' in order for the game to function, but they didn't want the player knowing.
For instance, obviously your character can only see so far, etc. This would provide a list of locations and everything of all the different enemies in the zone. The life, abilities, etc. of these enemies... what they were carrying... pretty much anything that could prove useful. With a little knowledge of the area you were in, one person with this program running could increase your productivity by crazy amounts.
Now, I'm not so positive that the poker sites don't send you information about the board, or other's hole cards, but I'm fairly certain they wouldn't jeopardize themselves like that. Show EQ, while not the easiest thing in the world to get set up (Required a seperate box running linux and hooked into the network,) was running rampant among EQ players.
I wouldn't be so paranoid myself about the poker sites, because even if the info is sent before it is revealed to all, and somebody designed a program like this, it shouldn't be too hard to track it. ShowEQ was very traceable, if anything tipped the people whom ran the game off (So, it was often referred to in code words... funny stuff, actually)
Posted Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:28 pm GMT by Remy
exactly snoogins47, for the past xx years the majority of hackers try to find holes in microsoft just because their microsoft, now with the boom of online poker and casinos all these hackers from around the world are trying to find back doors and hidden information in these places as well.
if something like this should happen i.e. sudden big payouts and withdrawls the company would get very suspicous and start investigating. I not sure if you remember an incident which happend in london a while back. These guys made/invented a little gadget which calculated how fast a roulette ball was thrown and give an estimate as to where the ball would land - then send the result to a mobile phone. neat uh.
Posted Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:08 pm GMT by snoogins47
Was there not some game show a while back where there were patterns of flashing lights for category selection, and some dude found a pattern?
He kept timing it to get the bonus squares, and got like 34 of them in a row, making him like $100,000 or something if I recall correctly.
Anybody know what I'm talking about? hehe
Posted Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:55 pm GMT by racquet000
Sadly i do. lol whammie or whatever the hell its called. 
Posted Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:37 pm GMT by Veiled Threat
Michael Larson on Press Your Luck in 1984.
The whole story is here:
http://gscentral.net/larsen.htm
Posted Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:44 pm GMT by Always_Bored
Thats Crazy!
Posted Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:24 am GMT by checkraise
This is somewhat related:
Has anyone done statistical analysis of the cards that people are dealt/hit the board? I may be crazy, but it seems to me that high cards such as Aces come oh so frequently as board cards. The online casino may benefit from this from the increased pot size that is raked. I know it sounds far fetched but stranger things have happened.
Any thoughts?
Posted Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:09 am GMT by Dead Money
If you think online poker rooms are fixed, I suggest you stop playing in them. That being said, most reputable card rooms have their random number generator certified by an independent third party. Look around on the site you are worried about and you should find somewhere on their website who certified thier RNG.
Furthermore, it is well known that any RNG based on the internal clock of a computer is not truely random. Very early on card rooms did use RNG based on this, but it has been many years since any of the reputable have.
So, you either trust them and the third party that did the certification, or you stop playing poker on line and spend your time looking for black helicopters and who really killed Marilyn Monroe.
Posted Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:11 pm GMT by Ventrick
I've been told in the past the the random number generator for Party Poker at least takes client side mouse movement into account as one of the factors in generating the seed.
I also doubt that the other players hole cards are sent to your PC unless they are shown.
The reason ShowEQ worked is because when you zone into a zone the entire contents of the zone are downloaded to your PC so it doesn't have to request new information every step you take just causing severe lag.
With regards to an online poker table everything is sent on a need to know basis. It sends out data when someone bets and when the flop is dealt and when someone folds. Your PC doesn't know someone has bet until they've bet, so it won't know the next card to be dealt until it is dealt.
Posted Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:58 pm GMT by Always_Bored
Yes the only way would be to hack into the main server. Even then it may get you no where because they probably generate the cards as they are delt. Plus you would probably get caught right away.
Posted Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:51 pm GMT by snoogins47
Speaking of those black helicopters...
what's the story/myth/urban legend about that or whatnot?
I remember I was out in Iowa at my brother's college, and one day I saw a chopper circling around virtually all day. I didn't really think much about it, and still don't, but I mentioned it in passing once..
"It was weird, I saw the same helicopter pass overhead like six times... you know if there's some airshow or chopper training or anything around here?"
"Was it black??"
"Come to think of it, it may've been"
"omg, I heard about those Black Helicopters! Wow, you saw one?!??"
This person just kinda rambled, repeating "conspiracy," "government" and "black helicopters" over and over again. I couldn't make out anything. What is the story behind em?
Posted Tue Sep 07, 2004 3:59 am GMT by JohnnyCache
Cardrooms don't use the standard random function from your compiler's library, man...
Posted Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:58 am GMT by snoogins47
| JohnnyCache wrote: | | Cardrooms don't use the standard random function from your compiler's library, man... |
That'd rule so hard if they did. I want there to be a big "RANDOMIZE TIMER" command at the top of the shuffle algorithm./code
Posted Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:19 am GMT by Muck
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned already but a seed is used to produce the same random numbers repeatedly purely for test purposes.
Once a system goes live the seed is removed and the application produces completely different random numbers each time its run.
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