Posted Thu Aug 07, 2003 10:47 am GMT by gerard_w
i've read several articles now and talked to several people on different boards, and most seem to think that tells are a waste of time in real life...i beg to differ, SOMEtimes i can figure out who's bluffin me or not, but not for the most part i can't, is it an aquired art, i haven't noticied any patterns in my friends playing yet..
that's all from here
i'm in NJ/NY so if you know of any games going on i'm up for them..
iiibeaniii@optonline.net
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Posted Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:19 pm GMT by Poker_Vendetta
You are talking about face-to-face play correct? Well, first to prove my point tells, and great readers and great poker players, let's just list some of the great players of ther recent times. Phil Hellmuth (don't disagree, whine or not he is a good player), Scotty Nguyen, Stu Ungar (deceased, but a wonderful player), Dan Harrington (95 winner, a reader as well)...And that is all I can really come up with that I KNOW are great readers...But I'm sure that a whole lot more poker players than I notice can pick up on tells. I wouldn't say tells are the most important thing in poker...Not even close, but they can help you make decisions, important decisions in poker. And that is what poker is! Making decisions, SHOULD I CALL? RAISE? FOLD? You, and your mistakes lose all of your money. Betting patterns, reads and what not, they all help you to make decisions. And you must make decisions to win. But C. Moneymaker won the (SPOILERS I GUESS)..............WSOP 2003, and he was an online player. So I guess hand readibility and a sense of a bluff is very important as well.
Posted Fri Aug 08, 2003 4:12 am GMT by tonytal
Like Vendetta, I think that poker tells are useful. But there are many other poker skills that are more valuble than evaluating tells. Concentrate on recognizing betting patterns, learning pot odds, outs, etc.
TT
Posted Sun Sep 21, 2003 4:32 am GMT by BigSlickAK
I think tells are real important. They have a problem though, they take time and concentration to spot and use. a lot of tells depend on the personallity types of opponents and what not. i'll give an example.
Texas hold 'em against my brother. I had rags and my brother raised before the flop. i limped in. earlier in the day we discussed repressenting obvious nuts, not just strength but the pure nuts. he said its scary, blah blah blah. and decided that it's good to do when you think ur opposition doesnt have it. i really cant explain the whole conversation but that isn't important. a loy of people all folded to my brothers raise. heads up me and him, everyone liked to watch me v cause we were brothers and have different styles so all were watching but none as closley as I. Flop came three aces with my bro first to act. he picked up the max bet chip to throw it with confidence win i spotted the tell. whet the chip got about a quater inch of his stack he tapped it back on the stack in a split second. Very minor hesitation. no one noticed, i dont think he noticed either because he kepy up his facade of confidence. he looked straight at me and i simply doubled his bet. I knew the following would happen. he said you always have it damn it and mucked it. he showed his hooks in the hole. he was mad that i had the nuts so i flipped over my 5-8. well he had a shit fit and went on tilt. i took the rest of his stack. seeing that tell didnt just win me that pot but his entire roll.
Posted Sun Sep 21, 2003 4:35 am GMT by BigSlickAK
sorry for spelling errors
Posted Sun Oct 05, 2003 4:02 pm GMT by ginpeddler
Good eye slick. It is such a good time to watch players try so hard not to tip you off. They act a little to uninterested. I especially like the exagerated frown on the flop, you know, the one they hold long enough for everyone to see it.
Recently I ended up one on one with a guy that had been kind of beating up on some newer players we had at the table. q-q-a comes on the flop. Here we go, he is trying so hard to NOT tell about his three queens that he limps in. I raise and he calls. 4th st. is a 3 or 4 I don't remember. Again he limps. River is again inconsequential. Cary Grant is still trying not to tip his hand. He comes with a fair raise and I go all in. He quickly calls and leans back in his chair and waits for his money. Finally able to be openly happy about his strong hand. He told me later he had not even thought about me having q-a in the pocket. In fact I usually play tighter than a frogs butt and he didn't smell trouble when I went all-in.
Yes tells are important, but like you said, good readers are kind of scarce. Wouldn't you agree that some players get a little too caught up in the old west image of the steely eyed players that wouldn't flinch if a gun went off, and forget to at least glance at the cards laying on the table.
p.s. Thanks for the tip on the chip tell, I shall keep my hands folded on the table until the bets to me.
Posted Sun Oct 05, 2003 8:52 pm GMT by BigSlickAK
no problem for the tip comes in handy if i think of any more ill post them. and yes i do agree.
Posted Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:24 am GMT by JimTheBullet
I play a few home game tournaments. I have noticed that the way that people pick up and push their chips when betting or raising, or even calling, can tell you a lot. It depends on the character of the person you are playing against - whether they are by nature neat/tidy/careful/fussy etc - but I have noticed that in general, the fewer chips people put out in front of them, the stronger they think their position is.
For example, if you play with chips at home (the same applies if you use small change in place of chips), most people will prefer their stack to consist of the fewest number of chips possible because a small stack of high valued chips (or coins) is (a) cooler looking and (b) easier to count than a large stack of small value chips. Therefore, if a player makes a pot sized bet on the flop with, say, 4 players still in the hand, look at how he makes that bet. If there is 400 in the pot and he bets 400 using 4 x 100 valued chips then he is confident about winning the chips back - otherwise he would have counted out 400 using those 5s, 10s and 25s.
Obviously, as with any tell, different people do the same thing and it means different things, but I think if you watch carefully how people bet and then compare the way they placed their bet to the strength of their hand, you will start to notice correlations.
Even Doyle Brunson suffered from this. I recently started reading the super system and he says early in the book that one of his friends told him that if he (Doyle) was not bluffing, he counted out his chips and then placed them in front of him, on the other hand when he was bluffing he simply picked up a stack and pushed it forward. Doyle was not aware that he had different methods of pushing the chips depending on what he was doing. If Doyle Brunson is not aware, the people you play with are likely not aware that they give away a lot of information with the way they push their chips.
Posted Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:31 pm GMT by BigSlickAK
Thats a good one bullet. I had friend who was real good at poker thing was whenever he was on a draw he would use funny denominations to call/bet (8 dimes and 4 nickels to call a dollar). But man if he had a made hand he i swear if he could he would make the whole pot one chip.
One tell that I've seen a lot in the recent past is something that i call bolster chipping (You all can call it whatever the hell you want). It's where people who's turn has not yet come grab a big stack of chips. they make it look really obvious to as if to say "Everyone, look out, Im going to raise." All of the people that I have encountered that do this are not neccecarilly trying to get you to fold but just call; They wanna see the next card for as chip as possible.
BTW I cant take credit for spotting that one on my own, I read about it in a book.
The first time that i saw that tell was the first time i went to the casino when i was 16, about 3 years ago. I had already know about the tell yet when i saw a man 5 people to the left of me pretend he was gonna raise i folded even though i knew what he was doing. I didnt really like my hand anyway but i still had a bad tase in my mouth. I was determined to wait for the man to do it again.
So, there i sat for about 3 hours at the 4-8 at the santa ynez chumash casino. This was my hand, although i didnt know it yet. I was on the big blind and everyone called untill the small blind who, raised. I called cause i hat e to let a blind go even though i know i should toss em (also i hadnt really feared anbother raise). everyone folded except for the bolster chipper. so the pot was good sized.
That's when i saw it. The small blind led into the pot. i went to fold my hand. apparently the guy thought i was considering a call or raise, so he better tell me not to. he grabed 12 chips, 8 for the call and 4 for a reraise. HA I knew what he was doing. Instead of folding I raised the small blind. The man set down his chips and mucked his hand. It was great. but even better was when the small blind folded as well and why.
after the hand he remarked; " I was gonna call, but when you reaised before that guy who was holding all those chips and he folded, i thought you probably had me beat. Nice hand"
The hand in question by the way was a 34 suited that completely missed the flop. The moral of the story; Tells are worth looking for.
Posted Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:15 pm GMT by boden11
at chumash casino eh? i play down there occasionally. how often do u go?
on to tells, i try to do the opposite of what most players do when betting on the flop depending on who's in it. for example if i make my hand big i'll often continue to lean forward in my chair and think about a call, vs having a decent drawing hand i can semi-bluff raise while leaning back and sipping my drink. almost worked last night at a card room...i had pocket Q's and raised pre-flop and the flop came like 9-4-K with 2 diamonds and i managed to get everyone out with my bs tell, well except for the guy with his set of K's...heheh, oh well. i don't do this always of course usually i keep the same stance at the table and whatnot.
a lot of tells i've noticed tho are how the hands go to the chips...which varies by player (some slow shaky hands mean good cards for one person while utter garbage with another). just watch how they bet and see how they had it if they showdown.
Posted Wed Jan 21, 2004 11:13 am GMT by schrek
My personal opinion about tells is that ones biggest tell is the way one plays their hand... Raises... re-raises, folds, checks, check-raises etc.. Most players are consistent. You have to know that, if you've played a considerable amount of poker. The better players try to vary the way they play, and be a bit less consistent. But the fact remains, that most of us (including myself) play too consistently, and that is the biggest tell of all.
A side note: If you play against someone for a short period of time (ie: 10 person tourney is too short, or anything around that time frame) I don't believe you can pickup on the "consistency" of your opponent. To really understand a players consistency you must play for some time to really understand their strategy.
What do you think?
Posted Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:50 am GMT by UnluckyKyle
yeah, playing the same person week after week will let you pick up tons more info on their particular playing style. I've been running a home game for about 7 weeks now and we've got about 6 players that play every week plus a few that show up when they can. After week 4 i pretty much had everyone's playing style down.
On the topic of tells here's one i've noted from some of us.
Shaky hands. If someone i know to be a tight player limps in or makes a small raise with very nervous hands.... 99% of the time they have a monster hand.
I wouldnt take that as a rule though, i noted that i myself get shaky hands when i bluff. I try my hardest to cool myself down and mellow out a bit, but if i can tell they're shaking so can everyone else.
Posted Tue Mar 23, 2004 2:39 am GMT by _.~`ZeuS`~._
My first major (major for my area is 160 people)tournament.
There was a guy across from me that stared everyone down on their bet, well he made a monster hand his raise showed it but others at the table were rather loose and called. He would glance at the bettor then look away from the action. Nothing like his stone cold stares as before he wanted people in to at to his stacks he was afraid to stare them down for the fact that they might fold. I can only take credit for noticing it.
But I have to thank Caro for pointing it out!!
Posted Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:12 pm GMT by Knish
I must thank Mike Caro as well his book and knowledge of the game is unreal and the tells in his book are present in many many players. I can spot one of his tells in at least 3-4 people at any table I have played on. His book is a great read and can earn you a few dollars once memorized.. 
Posted Thu Feb 24, 2005 2:13 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I've found that the best time to catch a tell on an opponent is when the cards come on the flop. Next time the cards are coming down, watch all of the other players. They're all watching the flop and it's sometimes too easy to gauge their hand from their reaction. For instance, I play against someone who, when they hit their card on the flop, stare at it. This lets me know that they flopped a pair. Also, if they next look at their chip stack, you can almost be assured that they're holding a strong kicker or even possibly caught two pair.
Another is when a player instantly rechecks their hole cards as soon as the flop falls. This is usually a tell that they're on a draw. Watch this one though. I do this on every hand just to throw off my opponents.
I agree with the chip denomination tell also. However, I've usually found that when a player uses the big chips instead of the small chips to bet, they usually don't have a hand and are using the big chips to intimidate other players to get them to fold. If they use them to call, they're normally sitting on a monster.
Another tell that I've noticed are players who shuffle chips while they're playing. They usually have a good rhythm and don't falter unless they get a monster or they're trying to bluff. Usually if they have a good hand, they slow down, but if they're bluffing they speed up on the shuffle.
Also, another player that I play with will stare me down when he bets big but for the opposite reason. He's staring me down because he has a hand and knows that I've read Caro's book. He does this to incite a call from me, hoping that I'll put him on a bluff.
Also, watch a player who "goes into the tank" a lot. They're the mathematical type usually and they're calculating odds. This is a great tell because it usually shows that they're on a draw and are trying to see if they have odds to call your bet and hope they make their hand.
Tells are very important in live play. Online, all you can do is try to pick up on betting patterns and what value your opponents puts on certain hands.
Posted Mon Mar 28, 2005 9:46 pm GMT by KINGJACK
| tonytal wrote: | Like Vendetta, I think that poker tells are useful. But there are many other poker skills that are more valuble than evaluating tells. Concentrate on recognizing betting patterns, learning pot odds, outs, etc.
TT |
In Limit cash games, your entirely right. But in NL tournament, reading is everything. One bad read can mean your out. And if you only play the cards without taking risks, it's impossible to go far in it. Oh you can do well, but to win a 500 players tournament, you'll have to double up at least 5 times in 300 hands. Cant wait for trips, straights, Flushes etc...
And if you do, you'l never have a call!!! So...
KJ
Posted Tue Mar 29, 2005 8:51 am GMT by BeerWench13
I got a great tell from a player while I was in AC last weekend. I was at a $1/2 NL cash table. He was pushing the table around playing very aggressively. I sensed that he was more of a tournament player than a cash player. In the space of about 2 hours he had amassed a monster stack mostly by making other players fold to his big bets. He raised most pots he was involved in and only limped once (with Aces, btw, and he forgot to put his shades on that hand, so I knew what he was holding...another tell, but not the one I'm referring to because that one didn't pay me.) I'm BB and bully raises it to $15. I look down to see pocket 4's. I call and the rest fold. The flop comes 2 3 4 rainbow. I figure he has an A and probably a pretty good kicker or he'd have only raised to $7 or $10 preflop. So, my read is that I've hit my set and he has 4 outs for the bicycle. I'm first to act so I check, knowing that he'll bet. He pushes out $15. I re-raise to $30. He calls. The turn is a 9. No help for him. Again, I check knowing he'll bet. He pushes $25 at me. I re-raise to $50. He hesitates for just a split second and then calls. Now I'm wondering if my read was wrong and I gave him too much credit preflop. Did he raise to $15 with A5? The river is a 10. I bet out $25 and he comes over top of me all-in. However, right before his all-in bet, he removes the chips off of his cards and looks at them again. That's when I knew he had missed his draw and figured the only way to get me off of the pot was for him to go all-in. He hadn't looked at his cards for a second time ever unless he was going to fold them. This was his tell. I think he wanted to throw the hand away, but there was about $200 in the pot (and, he didn't want to fold to a girl) so he decided to bet all in. He had me covered, but I quickly put in my last $195 to call. He flips over his AJ and I show my 4's and scoop in the $500+ pot. What a rush. I'm glad that he was so aggressive before that hand. Since he was involved in most pots and was usually doing the raising, I watched him more than I did others at the table. Also, he had that stack of about $1600 in front of him that was just calling me. I waited for 4 hours to crack him, but it felt so good to do so. Had he not had that little tell before going all-in, I may have laid down the best hand.
Posted Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:28 pm GMT by salt_bagel
| Quote: | | Online, all you can do is try to pick up on betting patterns and what value your opponents puts on certain hands. |
I disagree with this. There's an old thread just below this that has a lot of insight regarding online tells. Also, a nice article is at the address below:
Online, all you can do is try to pick up on betting patterns and what value your opponents puts on certain hands.
http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/players/hilger02.htm
The tells online involve bet speed and there are plenty of them. I find there are very few people online that don't tip something off about their strength with the speed of their check/call/raise.
I try my best to avoid online tells in a few different ways. First, I never use the auto-call button. I also try to either play real fast or slow all the time during a session. I especially find it helpful when I delay (even just slightly) every time the action comes to me. This not only keeps my betting speed the same each time, it also really pisses people off.
Posted Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:21 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| Quote: | | I especially find it helpful when I delay (even just slightly) every time the action comes to me. This not only keeps my betting speed the same each time, it also really pisses people off. |
I agree. I usually have a set count before making a move online unless I'm trying to portray weakness/strength. Then I adjust to the situation. However, I hate waiting on people who always wait until the last possible second before making their move, so I don't go to that extreme. I find that when someone takes forever and a day for every play that they end up becoming a target for the table or everyone leaves to find a table with faster play.
Posted Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:51 pm GMT by dwolfg
a tell i look for is relaxation/tension. you have to study the player to determine whether he/she tenses when bluffing or holding something big but the shoulders may either rise or drop subtly depending on whether the player likes or dislikes his/her hand and/or the board. you have to be careful it's not done too dramatically as this could be acting "poker sigh" in caro's book
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