Conservative Play Strategy |
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Posted Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:17 am GMT by Panacea
This is my first post here ...
I've read a good deal about poker including a bunch on this site along with Super System and what not. Some of the information I can apply, but then again some of the information is for advanced players playing advanced players. I'd like to think I could hang with the vast majority of players, but I generally play home games with pretty crappy opponents. I try to play ring games but I'm not always able.
My opponents are generally the passive, loose players -- probably the worst players imaginable in Hold 'Em. We'll usually play ring games with quarter blinds and most people bring about $10 to the table. You can cash out pretty much at any time, but usually we'll all finish after 3 or 4 hours of play I suppose.
If I'm not around the blinds are usually called by everyone and every now and then raised a whole quarter. My strategy is usually to call with anything that is decent and when I have good pocket cards raise it up a dollar or two. I'll still usually get a couple callers and they could have anything from A2 to 78s to AA. This makes it pretty difficult to read them. After the flop if I hit big I can take the pot, but my biggest problem as of late is putting a lot of money in the pot and having the best hand of any of the people in there and then seeing nothing. At that point the other people might start making relatively small bets until all the cards are out, but even .50 or 1.00 bets when I have nothing are hard to call. They may be bluffing at that point or they may have something. What do you guys do in these situations where you've invested a lot of money in the pot and just don't come up with anything on the flop against a player that really could have anything and is betting 1/4 the pot or so?
(Of course I'll bluff every now and then and throw my cards face up and make a point that I was bluffing)
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Posted Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:27 am GMT by Dave B
bet 1st -even w/ nothing or reraise. This will quickly let you see whether they have anything. Once you check or call, you are basically telling them that you miss a flop and dont have a pocket pair. However, if they are as bad as you make them sound-they may not even realize it.
Also-if I am playing w/ many loose callers, I will raise almost everytime I see a flop. I want them to pay for their 6 8 suited or k4.
Posted Thu Jun 24, 2004 12:52 pm GMT by howzit
I agree w/raising everything , IF YOU HAVE A HAND. even if that means ace high or second button w/a good draw. Loose/passive players who only play their hands tend to check/call you through to the river. So, try to avoid making moves on them. One more thing, try to get up and move to a better seat, preferably behind them so you can dictate their betting pattern. other than that, good luck and catch live cards.
Posted Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:17 pm GMT by snoogins47
I very much like that Dave: Raising almost every time you play.
Even with marginal hands, you're still bound to get people calling you with worse.
Of course, this can hurt. Putting 15-20% of your stack in preflop, and missing the flop, can be a painful experience.
Thing is though, you sacrifice a bit of consistency of profit in exchange for getting MORE profit, in my mind.
Now, speaking of Doyle and the supersystem.. much of what he says does indeed mean how he plays when playing other top players.
Mostly, you just have to take situation into the equation.
For instance, one of his favorite plays: the semibluff...
Oftentimes a very excellent move. Invest say... 50% of the pot, so you're getting 2 to 1 on your investment. If you're drawing to a nut flush, you're gonna have the best hand by the river over 30% of the time. So, if your opponent will fold 20+% of the time, that's a very strong play.
However, let's not forget what else he says... In a loose game, you're going to have to showdown the best hand to win.
The passive, loose callers... In my mind, the way to annihilate these players is a combination of being very patient, very aggressive, and squeezing the most value you can out of your hands.
I like lots of medium-sized value bets against these types of players as well. I will often bet a mediocre hand in these situations. It has a few benefits: 1) Even your top-pair with low kicker, second pair with an overcard, a pair + draw is sometimes likely to get called by players hoping to get lucky on miracle draws, like trying to hit a low set or a weak flush or something. Some of these people will even call anything with any pair at all. 2)You find out pretty easily where you're at in a hand.
I said I would probably bet moderate hands more often against these people. But not big bets; I don't expect them to fold. I expect them to call, and figure that if my hand is likely to get called by a worse one, it's worth a moderate bet.
On the flip side of that, I usually would have to be pretty strong to call a bet, and it'd be hard for me to call a re-raise without somethin near the nuts. If the guy who's been checking and calling all night doubles my bet and it gets back to me... I gotta be afraid.
Now, it IS very hard to see what these people have. And there will be times when somebody flops a monster, and you do all the betting for them. A lot of these players will just check and call the whole way, show you the monster, and rake in a pot that is much smaller than it probably should have been. It's painful when this happens, but it's not something that you're going to constantly run in to.
I think the best part of a low stakes loose passive game like that happens with people drawing. You can ALWAYS make them drawing with the mathematical worst of it. And they will almost ALWAYS stay in. Case in point: I was playing .01/.02 NL online. Flopped top pair, with two to a flush on the board. I bet pot, one caller.
It's now heads up.
Turn is a blank, fire the pot again, he calls me.
River is a blank, but somehow made the board very scary for me (paired up the board, possible straight...)
The pot is about 0.75 now. I bet .02, the minimum bet, basically to see how he reacted...and he folds instantly.
Against a player like that, the aggression is an amazingly powerful tool. On the river, by their betting, you will ALWAYS know whether or not they hit the draw. The whole way, you're getting the best of it, mathematically, and most of the time you will punish them and take these big pots uncontested (or even better, you'll get called on the river with Jack High because he wanted to 'keep you honest')
| Quote: | | What do you guys do in these situations where you've invested a lot of money in the pot and just don't come up with anything on the flop against a player that really could have anything and is betting 1/4 the pot or so? |
The simple answer is, run away, quickly. If these are generally the loose-passives you talk about, and there are four or five people still in the hand, run away.
In my mind, at a low stakes, no-fold'em type game, with huge multi-way pots and lots of people ready to gamble... there's no such thing as "playing when the flop misses you," for three reasons.
1)You are going to have a hell of a time winning the pot with a showdown.
2)It's not very likely that you can win it without a showdown.
3)With big multi-way pots, you can be pretty sure that at least SOMEBODY has gotten a piece of the flop.
And by the way, be careful with the idea of "I've already invested X in the pot..." as that can cause some mediocre decisions. Try to base your decisions merely on pot size, not on your investment. That money ain't yours anymore: it's money up for grabs, given to the winner of the pot. Even if half of it WAS yours, if you can't win it, cut your losses, and gear up for the next hand.
Wish I could give some tidbit that was like, "do this in situation X, always," but I really can't... all I can do is share what little I've experienced about the game, and how that affects me: gotta let your judgement do the rest.
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