When is a preflop raise successful? |
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Posted Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:00 am GMT by JimN
In low-limit games, some people recommend limiting pre-flop raises (even with AA) on the theory that most people will invariably call, yet the raise will give away too much information. If a preflop raise is primarily intended to limit the field (rather than increase the pot), then I wonder how many people should be forced out before one could consider the raise successful. In other words, if my preflop raise (with a high pair) gets out 1 person, I suppose then it wasn't worthwhile, but if it eliminates 7 players then I guess it was. I would find it very helpful to know, though, how many people should be eliminated from a preflop raise to consider it successful.
Any thoughts?
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Posted Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:54 pm GMT by Carson Cashman
If your hand is very strong (KK, AA), then I'd say eliminating even one player makes it a successful raise.
Even if many players enter the pot, what harm can your raise do? You have a strong hand, and you've succeeded in getting more money in the pot with that hand that is favored to win. Ofcourse, you want to eliminate the limpers who might get lucky and catch something like two pair on the flop, so not raising wouldn't seem to make much sense.
Posted Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:09 pm GMT by JimN
Thanks Carson. You might be interested that my thoughts were provoked by the recommendations at www.lowlimitholdem.com, under an article entitled "too much information."
To me, the basic question is: since the raise will not thin the field much, will the increased size of the pot offset the fact that fewer pots are won?
Posted Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:55 pm GMT by Poker_Vendetta
The only reason to raise is to...LIMIT THE FIELD, or to INCREASE POT SIZE. I would, unless you are playing shorthanded against very aggressive opponents, always suggest raising preflop with anything like JJ, AKs, QQ, AQs, KK, AA...Well, those are the easy ones of course. And if you raise preflop you make it look like a nice hand...So even if you miss and are in good position you can fire another shell. And of course, if you were to flop quads or something serious you could still check and trap your opponent. This could be critisized (the statement), but I think poker is won after the flop most of the time.
Posted Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:25 pm GMT by Carson Cashman
Hey JimN,
I took a look at that article, and although it raises a few interesting points about playing for pot odds (that A4s can indeed become a playable hand if you catch your flush draw on the flop with alot of callers), its most interesting point is giving away information.
The main factor you'd have to consider is not so much whether you're giving away information so much as what your opponents actually do with that information.
In a situation where 5 or 6 people are seeing the flop at a table, despite a raise or two, your opponents certainly don't seem the type to actually DO anything with the information you're giving away with your raise. They just calling and calling, hoping to catch something.
These are the kind of opponents you need to punish with raises. Lets say the poker gods are blessing you with AA, and you're in middle position with one limper behind you. The table is full of players who will play any suited connectors, baby pocket pairs, or even junk like JT offsuit.
Your job at this point is not to hide the power of your hand. Your job is to come out strong, frighten some of those drawing hands out, and even if you don't get them out of the pot, make them pay extra to even take a chance at drawing out on you.
Money is made in poker by the mistakes of others. Calling a raise with junk preflop is one great example of a mistake.
My advice is to capitalize on that mistake, and compound it by keeping the pressure up on the flop and turn, unless something very scary comes up and you need to hit the breaks.
Posted Thu Sep 11, 2003 7:17 am GMT by Dave B
Often whether or not I raise preflop has to do w/ position. If I am on the big or small blind and 5 or more call in front of me, I will raise preflop. They will almost always call. If I am early in position, I will usually call-then hope for some to raise into me. If someone raises early after me, then I can 3 bet if I have Ks or As.
If I have 10s Js Qs KQ AK or the like, I will raise regardless. There are too many hands that will beat these, so if I scare people off, no problem. If I have 10s or KQ and can grab the blinds w/ no flop-no complaints.
Posted Thu Sep 11, 2003 7:04 pm GMT by mindgame
When you are in a game with players who pay anything to see the pot, then make them pay when they are underdogs. If they were the types that could use any of the information you're giving them they wouldn't be calling in the first place. Nobody much cares what your hand is here, so you aren't, in effect, giving away a thing. You'll win fewer pots with your best hands in a game like that, but they'll be huge when you win them. And you'll be getting the pot odds you need to see a lot of flops that will end up hitting you big.
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