Posted Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:20 pm GMT by ilikepoker
I was recenly in Vegas for the first time and played my first brick and mortar games. First of all I had alot of fun. I thought I'd tell you a little bit about what happened.
First night I played 2-4 limit holdem at the horseshoe. A few hours later I left the Horseshoe up 20 bucks. Now its only 20 bucks but it felt great. I saw that it was customary to tip the dealers. I did this but I dont really know how I should feel abut it. I mean isnt is the job of the casinos to make sure their staff if well enough paid? If it wasnt for tipping I would have been up almost $30 but that also includes the waitress' tips and who can complain about free drinks. That reminds me. One of the things I was impressed with at the Horseshoe (although Im not sure if its by their design) is that the cocktail waitresses wear clothes (y'know pants and all). I love to look at a girl's bum as much as the next guy I'm sure but talk about distracting! You can't smoke at the horseshoe, but I couldn't smoke for the 8 hours it took me to get to vegas either. And at least if I wanted to I could step out to smoke (unlike the plane ride of course).
After I left Horseshoe (I was told I might not want to be wandering in old vegas too late) I went back to my hotel, Mandalay Bay. The lowest limit they have there is 4 - 8. Steep for me, but I had just walked away from Horseshoe a winner so I sat down. I later ( afew hours) walked away 30 bucks down, but what I found there was a completely different experience. Most of all I noticed the dealers could not (or didn't try hard enough) to control the players at my table. Not only did I see collusion, but poeple talked about their hands after folding (while people are still playing) and I saw people flashing thier "live" cards to eliminated players. What I mean by collusions is that players with folded hands would sometimes help their friends to make calls. I dont know if this is usual but it was sure different from the basically straight up poker I found at the horseshoe. One dealer at Mandaly Bay was, in partuclar, an a**hole. When I first arrived at the hotel, after checking in, I went to the poker room to check ti out. He was host then. He didn't want to help me with my newbie questions and when he told me what time to come for the 30 player max $40 freezout tourney he told me to arrive a 1/2 hour too late. He was clear on the time he said and both my dad and I heard him well. All I can guess is that he had friends who he wanted to see get in. Anyways, the bottom line is that my humble reccomondation is to not play poker at Mandalay Bay. The conversation was fun sometimes because people talked about the hands alot but I much preferred playing with people who did not seem like a bunch of friends.
The last thing I did pokerwise was play in a tourney at the Orleans. I placed horribly at aprox 115 in a record high total of 170 players. It was a very different tourney that Im used to. I guess what I have normally played (online) would have been called a freeze-out in Vegas. Heres how it worked. Buy in for $40 to get 300 tournament chips. If you pay $3 when you register you get 75 additional tourn chips. when you sit down you can rebuy right away for $20 and you get and additional 300 tourn chips. So, if your cheap (or confident) you start with 300 chips and if your willing to pay more to enter (like me) you can start with 675! very strange if you ask me. there are more buyins available in the first hour. If you are under 300 (I think its 300) you can rebuy 300 chips for $20 any time in the first hour. If you bust out in the first hour, you can double rebuy for $40 and get 600 chips again. If you bust out on the last hand of the hour, you can triple rebuy. My final hand was big slick. Blinds were at 50 / 100. I had 325 and was the big blind. By the time it came around to me I had a raiser and a reraiser behind me. With the raiser and rearaiser I'm not sure I did the right thing but I went all in and two pairs ended up on the board to make someone a tight. Before that hand the best cards I saw were A-10o and J-Qo so Im thinking it just wasnt my day.
Oh, I also emailed Phil Gordon because I play at his site (FTP) and I knew he was filming celeb poker at the palms. The last day I was in Vegas was the day he was doing a rehersal so I didnt get to catch a show but I did go and get a chance to meet him and he offered me some FTP gear. For a newb like me, it was a thrill to meet Phil Gordon and he's a really nice guy. Holy crap he's tall.
Anyways, I hope you enjoyed reading my poker adventure. I had alot of fun, except the losing part of course!
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Posted Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:08 pm GMT by humbleman
Great post my man, just want to answer / clarify one point for you about Vegas...almost all of the casino employee's you came into contact with (dealers, waitresses, housekeeping, valet parkers etc etc) are paid extremely POORLY by the casino's. The assumption made by hotel / casino management is that you (the tourist / gambler) will tip them (assuming of course that the employee does their job in an acceptable manner.) Tips are what allow most of these people to just get by. Don't get me wrong, some make extraordinary amounts of money off of tips, but I can guarantee you that none of the Poker dealers you encountered are in that category :D
Posted Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:18 pm GMT by ilikepoker
Hey Humbleman
Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was something like that. I can totally appreciate that. I will of course continue to tip in the customary fashion any time I am in brick and mortar but two things come to mind. It is one more reason to play poker from the computer. Second, I wish there was a way to encourage these crazy rich casinos to pay their staff better! I mean just becase they work for a casino doesn't mean they want to gamble on how much they will be paid week to week. I can see their might-be point that tipping puts pressure on thier staff to perform well. But if they paid them better, the job market's demand for that job may be pressure enough too.
I know I'll continue to tip but I still dont know how I should feel about it.
By the way, do people customarily tip in tourneys? just curious.
Posted Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:36 pm GMT by jwrussell
I'm with you on the tipping thing. Unfortunately, it really doesn't seem to affect how most of the dealers do their job. It's kind of like wait staff, but worse. You know the deal, there are some people that were born to be wait staff. They are funny, know what they are doing and they make sure you are happy. Then there are the rest that expect a tip even if they don't do their job all that well. Dealers are the same, but I see fewer that are in that "born to be" category.
As to tournaments, ask b4 it starts to be sure, but yes their is tipping in tournaments. Not during hands obviously but at the end. Sometimes it is built into the buy-in and that's why you should always ask. You don't want to find yourself tipping some percentage of your winnings to the dealers only to find out that that percentage was already taken out of your (and everyone elses) buy-in.
Posted Mon Aug 23, 2004 2:51 pm GMT by Matt T
Tipping is a heated topic, it's come up here before. I 'think' that if you polled most tipped employees, they would say they prefer to be tipped and NOT paid hourly by their employer. But that's based more on my 16 years of restaurant experience than anything.
I think people should always tip according to service. It seems it is treated as an 'obligation' anymore (by both the tipper and the tippee). I'm guilty, I'm an over-tipper unless I get bad service AND a bad attitude.
In the tourneys where I play, the 'customary' amount is 10% of your net. So subtract your buy-in from your winnings, and give 10% of that to the dealers. So only the folks 'in-the-money' tip the dealers in our tournaments.
I still don't have a good idea how much to tip at a live action game (avg. 10% BB per hand? avg. 5% BB per hand?).
Posted Tue Aug 24, 2004 1:31 am GMT by humbleman
Ilikepoker: I hear you but as you probably already know, Las Vegas casino's are all pretty much owned and run by corporations these days and those few that aren't, are still part of the competitive environment and make no mistake, the gaming industry is EXTREMELY competitive. I did my MBA thesis on the Gaming industry and believe me, there is no room for error with regards to expenses. They pay their help a pittance because they can and because they want to squeeze out profits for their shareholders, which by the way is management's duty...unfortunately. And with all due respect to General Sal (and I'm sure he understands that this is in no way meant to be disrespectful, I'm just stating a fact), the people who work in a typical Las Vegas casino can be easily replaced for the most part. There is a large pool of potential hires available since the jobs are basically unskilled, e.g. no college required. The employees have very little leverage although the various unions do provide some protection, but wages will never be a bargaining chip played by the unions because they also know how competitive things are in Vegas. It would be great if there were a way eliminate the need to tip employees (and thereby increase your win margin), but the economic and job skill realities just don't allow for it. 
Posted Tue Aug 24, 2004 12:50 pm GMT by mindgame
Some useful stuff here, thanks. I posted on the general forum just asking for general Vegas info. If anyone would care to add anything that isn't in here, please go ahead.
Posted Wed Aug 25, 2004 2:18 pm GMT by ilikepoker
Im not sure about all this. It seems to me that this culture of tipping is consumer driven and the corporations just take advantage of it by using it as an excuse to pay less money to their employees. I'm sure that people that work at Macdonalds would get paid even less than they do if they got tipped regularily. But when was the last time you tipped a friendly and courteous employee at macdonalds for serving you a fresh chesseburger? I have never. People who sell me music at a record store might work just as hard as a dealer or waiter but they never get tipped. If they did, again, their wages would be cut because "the man' will like to take advantage of that. The problem is that even if I am right and people stopped tipping to put pressure on the casinos to pay their staff more: first of all, the dealers would suffer the most, and thats not fair. Second, there will always be people that tip superstitiously in hopes of making "good karma". I'll admit I buy into the karma thing a bit myself.
I dont want to see dealers suffer, because hey I like what they do. But with the casino taking aprox $9 / hour in rakes per player (I read that in an article recently based on a $3/hand rake in a 3-6 game), I belive the casinos could do good business and probably increase their clientel by disallowing tipping and paying their dealers fair wages. Or even disallowing tipping but asking a "small bet" "dealer's fee" when you sit down at a table.
Honestly I belive my own suggestions suck. But I do belive there is a better way that I'm not thinking of. Is it an international thing? Or are there some places outside the US where tipping is discouraged?
| Quote: | | because they want to squeeze out profits for their shareholders, which by the way is management's duty...unfortunately |
unfortunately is right. You're absolutely correct, Im sure. but is sucks. What ever happened to consumer power?
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004 8:58 am GMT by Idaho
| ilikepoker wrote: | | What ever happened to consumer power? |
It's sat in McDonalds gorging itself on special offer 3 for the price of 2 cheeseburgers.
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:59 pm GMT by ilikepoker
| Quote: | | It's sat in McDonalds gorging itself on special offer 3 for the price of 2 cheeseburgers. |
lol 
Posted Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:55 am GMT by vegasholdem
very interesting read...thanx fer sharin that wit us
Posted Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:46 pm GMT by Juliea344
Hi Ilikepoker-
2 things:
1- the $3 extra you paid for additional chips at the Orleans tourney most likely went to the dealers. That's how they do it in most tourneys. The Golden Nugget takes an add'l $5 for 500 extra chips. The dealers in my home casino make a dismal $4 an hour. If we didn't tip enough I guess they would quit and we'd be SOL for dealers.
2- Just curious what time the host told you to get to Mandalay to register. I was there last week and they told me on the phone that reg. started at 3pm but if I wanted a spot I'd better not be any later than 2:15. Just wondered what they told you.
Posted Sun Sep 05, 2004 9:49 pm GMT by ilikepoker
Hi Juliea
I'm glad to know that I tipped the dealers at the tourney. But the casino gave me something for the tip. Isn't that nice. But the casino didn't have to pay for anything because it's tournament chips. How confusing. I get the whole tipping thing, I guess i'm just not convinced that the playrs and the dealers are not getting yet another rough end of another pineapple.
It's already been a couple weeks and I've smoked alot of pot since then so my memory is a bit hazy. Having said that though, I am absolutely sure he said registration started at 3. I'm trying to remember if I asked if I should be there early or to just arrive at 3. If I asked, he definately didn't tell me to be there at 2:15 if I want a seat. If I didn't ask, I still wonder why he wouldn't have volunteered that information like the host did for you. either way, I suppose it's possible he did nothing wrong.
But the question is what happened at 3 after arriving at 2:15?
Because when I arrived at 3, the host said it was full at 2:30. I am very curious what happend when you signed up.
Posted Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:28 pm GMT by Juliea344
I didn't sign up. Once I found out I'd have to be at the casino at 2:15 for a tournament that started at 6pm I figured it was cutting into my tanning time way too much. But I, too, thought it was a bit odd that If I arrived at a casino at 2:30 I would be too late to register for an event that begins registering at 3:00.
Posted Mon Sep 06, 2004 7:32 pm GMT by Vegas_Rook
Tipping:
Dealers here are normally paid minimum wage and survive from their tips. It is generally considered proper class and manners to tip your dealer when/if you win.
That said, there becomes a problem. Living here, having been a dealer, player and so on, I know MANY dealers who expect you to tip regardless as in it is your REQUIREMENT to do so. Thus, they just "do their job" and expect this.
I always get into with them because I feel you need to EARN your tips. When I dealt, I was always nice and friendly to my players. I would always be happy to teach people how to play and if asked, give advice. To me, you don't deserve tips for simply dealing the cards, raking chips, punching in a keno ticket and so on. You deserve it when you are friendly and willing to go above your job.
About OLD VEGAS (aka old strip, old downtown, downtown,etc):
They re-vamped it a lot and it is more secure now if you stay under the fremont experience. (Like Horseshoe is). They have security all over these days.
Old downtown is where all the lower limits are. The "strip" (caesars, mandalay,ti,mgm, etc) is where the higher stuff is. They figure if you are a tourist down there, you are going to pay to play.
The Plaza and the Horseshoe have lots of poker normally.
Hope you liked your trip here.
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