New Players Probably Shouldn't Read |
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Posted Wed Aug 25, 2004 11:10 pm GMT by lifer25
Guys,
I got busted tonight by five first time brick and mortar players. I made good plays all night long. After my set of jacks got busted up by a 72d and he chased his flush down on the river. The great part about it was he called four of my raises. Pre-flop I was re-raised and the player even called that raise (total of five raises). I can't adapt. I never lose my temper or talk about others play. Tonight I did. I am done. I have to let this wave settle down. After I lost my whole bank roll I sat down with a friend who's plays professionally. He got banged up too, we came to the conclusion that we have to let the wave settle down.
I'm not complaining but do others see this happening in your poker rooms. This was happening, which is normally a great game. Somebody please let me see the other side of the fence. There is a threat in our poker room right now. The problem is this is not how the game is supposed to be played. In my opinion you must respect your money. If someone is playing crap and they keep catching and keep catching, it eventually sends your nuts in your stomach. I'm really happy that the game is growing but people see it on t.v. they don't watch the game. I will sign back on, but for right now I'm on a long break.
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Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004 8:49 am GMT by Idaho
So you think it should simply be a one-way flow of money from their pockets to yours? 
It's a game with a hefty element of luck. Even the best players in the world get rolled over sometimes. The point is that you could go back and play against those people 10 more times - and you would be paying them 2 times, the rest of the time they'd be paying you.
There's no style points. A fish with a full house and an itchy calling finger is still going to beat the best in the world sitting on his nut flush.
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:22 pm GMT by mindgame
The beauty of poker is that it rewards, sometimes handsomely, horrible, horrible play. The problem, of course, is that solid players are usually the ones paying the reward. The problem is compounded by the knowlege that when we pay for such play we are usually not going to be around for the payoff--somebody else, some other day, some other place will bust the moron in question. The only solution is to take the long view. It's one big poker game. Somebody right now is paying off the idiot we will bust next week or next month. What comes around goes around--that's the wave your friend is talking about. How often have you gone to the river AQ with a guy on an Ace/six off? He has three cards in the deck. The other 41 are yours. He's a 93% underdog and he's paying you and he beats you 3 times in a row. You can't let that get to you or you're in the wrong game.
A word of advice. Avoid the lowest stakes hold-em game at any casino, especially if it's 2/4, 3/6, or 4/8. 5/10 can sometimes be okay, but if you can, avoid it. If you must play 4/8 or 5/10 to build your bankroll, then do it where it's not the lowest game spread. Even if you can beat a game full of bottom-feeders you won't learn what you need to learn to beat the good games. It's a no-win situation.
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:08 pm GMT by Matt T
| Quote: | | Somebody please let me see the other side of the fence. |
You're complaining that the players are bad. If they are so bad and you're so good, beat them. I'm not trying to be a smartass but getting beat by a 'bad' player happens all the time in poker. IMO, you're not adjusting your game. Don't get me wrong, I'm in the same boat you are (at least I think I am) but I refuse to blame other's "poor play" for my losses.
What's the quote? Something like: Poker isn't a card game played by people, it's a people game that just happens to be played with cards.
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:23 pm GMT by BamaFan92
I'm with you. I made my first trip for casino poker last night and was really surprised at how bad some players were. This drunk guy sat to my right and cashed in for $20 (2-4 hold 'em). He hit a freakin' straight flush on his first hand. Of course he was yelling that he had a royal flush. It didn't take him long to lose that money though. A lot of players don't know about blinds, structured betting, ...etc. You can't raise someone to let them know you have a good hand and they should not count on getting that runner-runner, but its no use.
I guess it just seems like if there are a lot of bad players at the table playing any 2 cards, 1 of them will beat you and they will take turns beating you. They will lose their money in the long run, just hope its to you. Like when I had 4 Kings last night!!!
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004 2:54 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| Quote: | | There's no style points. A fish with a full house and an itchy calling finger is still going to beat the best in the world sitting on his nut flush. |
That pretty much sums up my thinking. The worst part about having a fish catch on you in a big hand is watching him or her regurgitate all of your money to everyone else at the table. That's the only thing that really gets under my skin.
Just be patient though. If a fish will call all the way to the river and catch that miracle card, they will also call you all the way to the river and not catch that miracle card. Then you can sit back a know that you got the last laugh and count their money.
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004 3:37 pm GMT by Gronker
Im still a noob at serious poker but one thing has really become appearant to me: the mark of a good player is getting the most out of the winning hands and losing the least from the losing ones. The mark of a great player is being able to tell which is which consistantly. But those of us that want to make money at the game have to make money on the bad hands; which means bluffing which is confusing the other guys judgement of what is bad and good. Thats a real PRO.
Fischman is a great player (who I dislike) but Texas Dolly is a PRO. The old guy had that Crew Punk punch drunk. He didnt know which way was up.
My only problem with all the Dead Money in the games Ive been playing is that they are unbluffable. Which is why the pro's hate playing with so many bad players (ala the WSOP main event). The case of these guys making hands on the river I can live with, because in the long run, I will dominate them. It sucks but over time, I win. BUT how can you bluff someone that doesnt even know if his hand is good or bad? How can you make someone make hard decisions when they dont even know the question?
If Im going to sit at a table 5 or 6 nights a week and I have to win my rent each month, Im going to move to a table where my skill can win the day. Or Im moving to the internet, where I can be in 10x the hands per hour and let the odds work in my favor.
Just my 2 cents...
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004 11:09 pm GMT by lifer25
I knew I was going to catch flack for this post. Sorry I was still on tilt. My apologies, I welcome new players to play, learn and be much more prosperous than I have at this game. Been having a rough time, lost me head for the night. New players have fun, respect the game and take fools like me for their bankroll.
By the way, it was a 10-20 Game - that's the part that chapped my ass.
Once again I apologize.
Posted Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:20 am GMT by StarlightCoast
I just lost $175 in 3 days of playing .50/$1 limit ring games at Pokerroom. For this span of time I never saw myself get so many bad beats or at least beaten with hands I would normally win. High 2 pair nailed by trips. More straights beat by flushes than I care to acknowledge. Flushes beat by higher flushes and of course by a full house here and there and this is the conclusion I have reached. These halfwits chasining everything from a backdoor flush to overcards to the river has convinced me to seriously hold back my raises until after the river card.
Now I know many will disagree with this but it seems to me that in essence we are really fattening the pot for these chasers and I see no logic in this. Once you get to the river however, usually you can tell if there is anything thratening you and if you have trips and see 3 of a suit on that board then check it and don't raise. I don't really believe in the preflop raise with anything less than AA or KK because 1. the flop only helps you with AK or AQ about 20% of the time or so it seems and 2 if you do a preflop raise you are giving more money in that pot to someone else most of the time. Anyway that's my strategy for now. I still am tight aggressive and will come out betting but I am checking a lot more also when there is ANYTHING on that board then seems even remotely threatening.
Posted Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:47 am GMT by Idaho
| StarlightCoast wrote: | | Now I know many will disagree with this but it seems to me that in essence we are really fattening the pot for these chasers and I see no logic in this. Once you get to the river however, usually you can tell if there is anything thratening you and if you have trips and see 3 of a suit on that board then check it and don't raise. I don't really believe in the preflop raise with anything less than AA or KK because 1. the flop only helps you with AK or AQ about 20% of the time or so it seems and 2 if you do a preflop raise you are giving more money in that pot to someone else most of the time. Anyway that's my strategy for now. I still am tight aggressive and will come out betting but I am checking a lot more also when there is ANYTHING on that board then seems even remotely threatening. |
Definately. I was beating a table of these last night (online). Only see the flop with top drawer cards and then only progress on good chances of having the nuts. Check all the time. You will be able to see who's just hanging out for cards and who has something. If at the river everyone is checking still then you can raise and watch them all call for the sake of it. Don't get involved in big raises and re-raises on the flop. No-one will be scared off and of the five that bet to the river - one is bound to have the edge over you.
It's odd. If there is one or two bad players on a table then you can milk them mercilessly. If the table is full of muppets then you have to play a really tough and disciplined game.
Posted Fri Aug 27, 2004 8:46 am GMT by BeerWench13
| Quote: | | Don't get involved in big raises and re-raises on the flop. No-one will be scared off and of the five that bet to the river - one is bound to have the edge over you. |
Amen. I had a horrible run of cards last night. I played for 5 hours (live) and had a total of 7 hands with even one face card or an ace. I finally get a decent (not good, but I'd lowered my standards at this point) hand A9 suited in the BB. There was a $2 pre-flop raise from a very aggressive player to my left who made this same pre-flop raise every time he was holding an ace. All I was thinking was maybe I'll have him outkicked or catch a nice flop. Two other players and myself call the pre-flop raise. The flop is 9 7 3 rainbow. Finally, I got top pair on the flop! It checks around to the player to my right who bets $2. I go all-in with what hadn't already been bled from me $13.25. Everyone folds but the player to my right. He calls. Then he flips over his cards. 9 3 offsuit! That's right. He called a $2 pre-flop raise with 9 3 off. Needless to say, I was dead if I didn't catch an ace. The turn....another 3. This idiot pulls off a full house with 9 3 after calling a preflop raise that was 4X BB. WTF?
I keep making the same mistake when playing against a few of these players.....I go there expecting to play poker, not just gamble on any two cards. Fish can make you rich, but they can also catch on you and break you. Next time I play with this guy I'm definitely going to stick with my tight/aggressive play, but on flops like that I'm just going to fold knowing that he probably has a crap hand and just caught a monster.
Posted Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:09 pm GMT by honestbleeps
What this really comes down to, guys, is table choice.
If this is happening to you and you're getting bowled over, look at what's going on.
Are you losing to idiotic chasers in a pot with only 3 players, or are there usually 6, 8, even 10 people in the pot out of the 10 at the table?
If there's 10 in the pot, I don't care what your hand is, you're officially in the middle of a crap shoot, and AK suddenly sucks unless it hits two pair, because some weak ace in there is relatively likely to hit two pair. There's just too many cards out there.
I've found that there's a certain level of looseness that's good for a table - you need 1 or 2 total fish, 2 to 4 players who sorta know what they're doing, but are really just dangerous to themselves because of that borderline knowlege of the game, and 1-2 good players.
If you've got 8 loose players at a 10 person table, you're not playing poker anymore, you're playing the lottery. You're just hoping to get the best cards, have them hold up to the river, and show down a winner. How likely is this when there's 14 other cards in play besides yours? Suddenly top pair top kicker isn't really all that hot. Consider the game of Omaha, where everyone gets 4 cards. How often do you see one or two pair take down a pot? Barely ever, because there's way more cards in play.
Stop playing AA aggressively if there's 10 people in the pot - you're probably going to lose.
The one thing I'd suggest at these crapshoot tables is playing suited connectors a lot more often. They're giving you AMAZING pot odds to chase straights and flushes, and that's where you're going to make your money. Your AK isn't going to pay much if you hit your ace, and it's going to bite you in the ass when some clown plays 49 "because it's suited", and hits two pair on you on the river. I'm not saying don't play it, but don't rely on nothing more than top pair to win a pot unless it's down to just a few people.
Basically, you need to get away from tables like this unless you know how to play them, and from what I've gathered/read and some experience (but admittedly not a ton) - the only thing to do at these tables is either turn tail and run, or start playing high payoff hands like suited connectors that you can release cheaply if the flop doesn't give you a solid draw, and stop getting too terribly aggressive AA, KK and AK if you know the pot is going to be 7 handed every time and you can't take out some of the field before they nail 2 pair or some other junk on you.
Sorry, long post, I'll shaddup now.
Posted Fri Aug 27, 2004 3:35 pm GMT by StarlightCoast
This all brings up another question. At Pokerroom you have a choice when you play at .50/$1 and higher. You can play at 10 person maximum tables or 5 person maximum tables. Which of these 2 choices do you think is better. On one hand with 5 there are less chances of getting nailed but less money to be one but at the same time on a 5 person table there is less money going out to be won. So what do you think?
Posted Fri Aug 27, 2004 7:32 pm GMT by Makana
This really depends on your style. At a short handed game you have to get in there and be more aggressive and play more hands. Position is even more important. It's often harder to draw at hands because the pot usually isn't laying you the correct odds with so few people.
At full tables you need to sit back and pick yours spots a bit more. Position and aggression are still important, but you will usually be rewarded for playing tighter. At a 5 handed game, with the blinds coming around so often, you can't be too tight or you'll "go like Broomcorn's uncle" as they say =) i.e. you'll ante yourself to death.
Posted Wed Sep 01, 2004 10:50 am GMT by vegasholdem
poker is the game fer da masses...where everybody can go home a winner...
Posted Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:37 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Quote: | | Stop playing AA aggressively if there's 10 people in the pot - you're probably going to lose. |
Bad, naughty, EVIL poker advice.
Posted Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:31 am GMT by Reverend SC
This is why I wrote off limit poker. Too many with more money than brains calling any two cards and chasing the thinnest of draws, calling any face card regardless of the rag it comes with.
Last straw was Friday night at the 4/8 tables at my local casino. I had K-9 suited on the SB. Flop came 10-Q-8, rainbow. I figure I'll take one $4 stab at the turn, since everyone else was doing it, lol, but they check around. Turn rag. I check UTG, BB bets, mid raises, button calls. I figure someone has a Q since that's the way it had gone out of those 3, so I fold my draw hand. Jack hits on the river, I'm kinda pissed, but it would have been a $16 call on a jack.
But they all three go to the showdown, all three with 9's in their hands (one had an A, one had an 8, one had a suited 3), all three with Q-high str8's.
Posted Sat Sep 25, 2004 4:29 am GMT by AceyEm
Wow,,, sounds like some horrible experiences here. I'll offer some real
cheap advise.
1) Get off tilt.
2) Find a better table.
3) Learn how to play Texas-Foldem when everyone else is playing
Nofoldem-holdem.
4) Take a look at www.lowlimitholdem.com
5) Play tournaments only.
Last weekend my wife and I were really bored. We live about 30 mins
from 3 Indian casinos and have never been in there. (we have our own
plane and are only 3 hours from Vegas's Texas Station.
Our first venture into an Indian casino we noticed some differences.
First, drinks cost about $4 each, in Vegas they're comped.
Second, the payouts on the video poker machines were reduced in the
mid range hands (straights, flushes and boats all paid one less).
Third, no dufases in suits pushing timeshares. (this we liked)
Anyway my wife thinks Holdem is game for simpletons, she hadn't
studied very much and never watches the games on TV. I do Ok
in Vegas so she thought that it would be easy money for her in the
Indian's poker rooms.
Well we get in and have about a 20 minute wait so we visit the restrooms
and then grab a couple of VP machines outside the poker room. I lose
10 bucks in about 18 minutes, she is actually up 20 when we get called
for 3/6 holdem.
We get seated at different tables so I dont get to see how she's playing.
At my table I sit down with a rack of 100 chips (btw my home chip set is
of higher quality than this casinos). I get seated and watch the first hand
being played out, I wasn't ready so I'm just a bystander at this point.
Pre-flop is called and raised and reraised and finally capped. Everyone
checks the flop and the turn. On the river a few bet the others fold and
then I get to see what everyone played. The hole cards were all rags
and a pair of nines took the pot. I just took a seat at the Mickey Mouse
Club and we're gonna play poker.
I fold my first three hands without even looking at them and just sit back
and watch the circus play out before me. It doesn't improve at all. Two
players went all the way to the show down with 72off.
I decide I'm gonna have to play a real solid game of Texas-Foldem to
survive the night. I finally get the big blind and have 93off and the pot is
raised before the bet gets back to me so I fold.
Next hand I get pocket jacks and am the small blind. I decide to play my
cards finally and the pot capped pre-flop as usual. The flop is a J and two
rags, rainbowed. Woohoo I have a set and it's high. I bet and everyone
calls reluctantly, (they're all used to checking the flop). Another rag falls
and there are no pairs on the board and no way to fill a straight, I'm boss
so I bet again, a couple of folks wise up and fold but 5 still call. A 10 falls
on the river, no flush possible but there is a chance for a straight now. I
bet and the usual noise of raise and reraise follows. I keep calling and
finally we get to the showdown. One clown proudly announces "ACE High"
two others have low pairs one has two low pairs and the last bozo has
a king high pile of crap. I show my trip jacks and receive a pot almost as
big as my initial buyin. I spend the next hour or so folding everything
that comes my way. There's a big screen tv across the room and WSOP
is on, I fold and post blinds and fold my raggy hands all the while watching
that Scandinavian guy play poker. No sound, just the picture.
Mean while my wife at the other table won her first two hands but since
was getting beatup really bad. She played about 75% of her hands and
ran all the way to the river with most of them. She soon had to go buy
another rack of chips. There's a bit of science to this game after all I
guess.
In 4 hours I only played 5 hands. AKs, 98s, QQ and A4s. The AK and 98
were both folded on the turn, the QQ caught another Q on the flop and
the river was the last Q. The A4 caught all lowboys on the flop and filled
the straight on the turn.
My wife came by my table just after my 4 queens and said she'd had
enough, she'd lost 2 full racks over at her table. She told me she's was
gonna sit at a VP machine outside and wait for me. About 5 minutes
after I filled the Ace-low straight she popped back in to tell me she just
hit a flush with 5 coins in on one of those 5 handed VP machines. She
took her 80 dollars and cashed out and informed me that it's now time to
leave. I left the dealer a 5 dollar tip and folded my hand and grabbed
4 racks to stack my pile into. I had 347 chips to cash in.
On the way home my wife and I compared our playing styles and she was
shocked to find out I only played 5 hands and only won 3 of those.
She has a new attitude about the game and is now reading and learning
to play low limit Texas-Foldem. I think her next trip out will be a little
better. She also learned that if she's gonna drink at the table it's going
to be soft drinks, let the calling machines drink the booze.
Posted Sat Sep 25, 2004 9:57 pm GMT by solrac87
Whenever some guy draws out on me, I try and think, "You've outdrawn somebody before, too."
We've all gotten lucky at times. We have all hit that miracle card on the river when somebody else had much better cards. When you started playing, you were a fish too.
So, I don't mind a loose call here and there. I mean, if they were as good as me, I wouldn't make any money. The bad players pay us. At low-limit, I raise with AA, KK, QQ, JJ (sometimes), AK, and AQ. With my other cards, I like to see if anybody raises behind me rather than call a raise, because that doesn't tell me so much.
Push your best cards pre-flop and if they don't hit the flop, fold. I NEVER chase. Because 1. I could already be badly beaten (2 pair, trips) and 2. One of my cards could improve somebody else's hand. Don't chase at the low limits, and you'll be ok.
Low limit is a technical game, like checkers. No limit is chess. At the lowest limits, just play solid cards and you'll rake in the cash.
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