Posted Sun Sep 12, 2004 1:21 pm GMT by marcusdickey
They might look good in your hand, but in fact, you have a 48% of no overcards, which leaves you with 52% of losing. Be very careful of raising with pocket jacks, that can get you into alot of trouble and lose you alot of money. Chances are, you'll lose with pocket jacks. Be cautious with that hand. ONly play pocket queens and up aggresively.
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Posted Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:17 am GMT by alphakenny1
lol. yea pocket jacks suck cuz most likely overcards are gonna come but most of the JJ pre flop is the best hand so imo it deserves a raise if you are first in the pot. if there is a raise, i usually call at least maybe sometimes rereaise. but yes JJ is the trickiest hand to play in hold em, especially no limit.
Posted Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:34 am GMT by krille
Jacks are the fourth best hand in the game... nuf said...
Posted Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:23 am GMT by ballbp
| krille wrote: | | Jacks are the fourth best hand in the game... nuf said... |
Too bad that the other 3 hands are the ones people stay in with most of the time. I'm tired of letting people catch a Q K or A on the flop and end up making me fold JJ. I bet A LOT pre-flop with JJ or QQ and hope to take the blinds then and there.
Posted Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:58 am GMT by Geno
This is not exactly 'Advanced Theory Discussion' guys with a title like that, let's try and be a little objective eh.
Posted Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:26 pm GMT by Underbelly
It seems every week I see a post that complains about high pocket pairs, usually JJ or QQ. Every once in a while there will be someone that complains about AA or KK.
I assume these are ver inexperienced players.
You see, and pocket pair no matter how great is just a good beginning. You still must play the hand. Look, you have AA; you still have to look for sets, 2 pair, straight, flushes, etc. With every other pair, you must add in the cards above it.
It seems bad players think good starting hands should automatically should win. Of course not. You must play them like anyother hand. But if you have JJ and set your set, your looking good. But if you don't get your set and a flush draw comes up, you have to be to drop in in a heartbeat.
The best play in the world is to have low suited connectors with a sucker who has 2 paired overcards. If I get my straight, he's looking at all these undercards on the table and I milk him big time.
But I think the problem is people believe high pairs are winners. They are not. They are just good starting hands.
Posted Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:24 pm GMT by nickshepAK
| krille wrote: | | Jacks are the fourth best hand in the game... nuf said... |
Actually they are the 5th best hand in hold em'... (i pulled this from hellmuths book under 15 best starting hands in hold em')
1. AA
2. KK
3. AK
4. QQ
5. JJ
Posted Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:10 am GMT by metal1
i usually call JJ the WORST GOOD starting hand. that sums it up
Posted Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:51 am GMT by hartmch
| nickshepAK wrote: | | krille wrote: | | Jacks are the fourth best hand in the game... nuf said... |
Actually they are the 5th best hand in hold em'... (i pulled this from hellmuths book under 15 best starting hands in hold em')
1. AA
2. KK
3. AK
4. QQ
5. JJ |
I think he was talking about Sklansky's hand ratings which have jj 4th and AKs 5
Posted Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:24 am GMT by Jauron
| nickshepAK wrote: | | krille wrote: | | Jacks are the fourth best hand in the game... nuf said... |
Actually they are the 5th best hand in hold em'... (i pulled this from hellmuths book under 15 best starting hands in hold em')
1. AA
2. KK
3. AK
4. QQ
5. JJ |
WIth all due respect to Helmuth (who I can't stand but thats another post) I'll take QQ over AK every single time. I do not believe QQ to be a dog to AK, and AK has to be suited to even be top 5 as well. I will however take AK over JJ every time.
In regards to original post, Jacks to me are the hardest hand to play after the flop. If the flop misses and brings undercards there is a desire to now get value out of the hand, but also to stop the drawing of hands that can beat you. If any overcards come you now have to decide if they hit the other person, a Queen being the hardest probably to let go to.
I'll limp early with JJ, raise moderate in middle position and raise big late.
I'm also hard pressed to call an all in with Jacks unless I'm a short stack. Money games are different of course, if I don't feel I'm already beaten I'll usually always call the all in and race with them. In fact I'd rather get my money all in preflop with them in money games, takes the guess work out of the hand. But thats just me.
Posted Mon Oct 04, 2004 11:09 am GMT by Sherrif Lobo
| ballbp wrote: | | Too bad that the other 3 hands are the ones people stay in with most of the time. I'm tired of letting people catch a Q K or A on the flop and end up making me fold JJ. I bet A LOT pre-flop with JJ or QQ and hope to take the blinds then and there. |
I tried this on a hand this weekend where I got JJ. I almost groaned out loud when I saw the hand cause of the recent discussion on here about the hand, but I made a big raise pre-flop, and get one caller. Flop comes out 2h, 3c, 9d. I bet big again...turn comes out 8h. I bet even bigger now cause I made it this far, and I don't want an over card coming. if the guy is waiting for a striaght or has a nut flush draw, he still needs one more card so I try and force him out, but he calls again, maybe he's got a set.....Kc comes on the river. I bet big again, maybe to either make him think the King gave me something or to let him know that I know he didn't catch a straight or a flush....and he calls.....he's got Ad, Ks... Do you think I played this as well as I could have and just got screwed or was I stupid to play it anyway? Should I have assumed he flopped a set, or put him on a hand like A, K?
Posted Mon Oct 04, 2004 12:40 pm GMT by nickshepAK
Me persoanlly I would have moved all in after the flop. I do this alot when I have pocket pairs that are higher than the highest pair on the flop. Most of the time they will fold because they arent willing to give up ALLL of their chips to catch a card but alot of bad players will pay big bets to catch a card. Only downside is sometiems you get rocked buy a set or a big draw.
Posted Mon Oct 04, 2004 1:21 pm GMT by ballbp
| Sherrif Lobo wrote: | | Do you think I played this as well as I could have and just got screwed or was I stupid to play it anyway? Should I have assumed he flopped a set, or put him on a hand like A, K? |
You played pretty much the way I was saying I like to play hands like that. If he had a set you probably would have gotten slow-played so it would be hard to put him on a set. He should have gotten out after the turn after you made another big bet, if when you say big you mean something around five or six times the big blind. When the king came on the river you were in a tough place but I would have still bet, as you did, but this is a good example of why I hate these hands.
Posted Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:17 pm GMT by BMiller1980
That is just a bad beat. What information do you have on the guy that beat your JJ? Big or small chip stack? What kind of image did you have? The guy obviously wasnt respecting you or is just an idiot. It is peculiar for him to risk so many chips with just high card ace with k kicker. Since he was not raising you it does not seem like he was really sure of himself so I dont think you could put him on a set. If he thinks of hands that could commonly be raised preflop of AA KK QQ JJ AKs AK AQs or AQ and potentially TT or even 99, then he is losing to everything but AQ and AQs. Taking all of that into consideration, I would be inclined to say that you just suffered a bad beat, and actually played the hand correctly, but I am interested in more information on the situation.
By the way, this is my first post on here  I'm Brian, 24 years old, and in Greenville SC. I have been playing Hold'em for about 5 months and like most people who pick the game up, i am addicted. Most of my play is online. I notice I am playing mainly tournaments and 25$ no limit games as opposed to the limit games. I look forward to learning more, and making many more posts!
Posted Wed Oct 20, 2004 12:54 am GMT by krille
| nickshepAK wrote: | | krille wrote: | | Jacks are the fourth best hand in the game... nuf said... |
Actually they are the 5th best hand in hold em'... (i pulled this from hellmuths book under 15 best starting hands in hold em')
1. AA
2. KK
3. AK
4. QQ
5. JJ |
Phil Hellmuth has no idea what he is talking about. The rankings, in order of expected value, is:
AA
KK
QQ
JJ
AKs
TT
AK
Posted Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:35 am GMT by milo
J J you can't win with em , wou can't win against em, you can't lay em down! enough said..........GOOD LUCK
Posted Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:01 am GMT by Sherrif Lobo
Flopped a set with Pocket J's last night
heads up..about even stack with the other guy
open for 6xbb and get called
flop comes 3h, Js, 10d
......all in....
I got called
he's got 10, 10.......okay sweet, I still have a better set
turn...2h
river 10s
WTF?
Posted Thu Oct 28, 2004 10:22 am GMT by ballbp
Don't sweat that one. You got your chips in there with a strong hand. Too bad he had a good one too and just got the one card he needed.
Posted Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:06 pm GMT by Digs
Yea, getting all your cash out there when you're a 96% favorite's never a bad play, dont sweat it 
Posted Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:40 pm GMT by Sherrif Lobo
I'd do it again 10 out of 10 times....it just sucks is all.
Posted Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:08 pm GMT by yeltzen
| Jauron wrote: | | nickshepAK wrote: | | krille wrote: | | Jacks are the fourth best hand in the game... nuf said... |
Actually they are the 5th best hand in hold em'... (i pulled this from hellmuths book under 15 best starting hands in hold em')
1. AA
2. KK
3. AK
4. QQ
5. JJ |
WIth all due respect to Helmuth (who I can't stand but thats another post) I'll take QQ over AK every single time. I do not believe QQ to be a dog to AK, and AK has to be suited to even be top 5 as well. I will however take AK over JJ every time.
In regards to original post, Jacks to me are the hardest hand to play after the flop. If the flop misses and brings undercards there is a desire to now get value out of the hand, but also to stop the drawing of hands that can beat you. If any overcards come you now have to decide if they hit the other person, a Queen being the hardest probably to let go to.
I'll limp early with JJ, raise moderate in middle position and raise big late.
I'm also hard pressed to call an all in with Jacks unless I'm a short stack. Money games are different of course, if I don't feel I'm already beaten I'll usually always call the all in and race with them. In fact I'd rather get my money all in preflop with them in money games, takes the guess work out of the hand. But thats just me. |
I'm not sure why anyone would want QQ instead of JJ against AK. In terms of just pairing up, 22, 33, 44, all the way up to QQ make no difference. They all are beat if an A or K comes up. However, JJ makes 4 straights, QQ only makes 3. 1010 would be the best hand to go up against AK with. It makes 5 straights.
Posted Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:22 am GMT by BMiller1980
| yeltzen wrote: | | Jauron wrote: | | nickshepAK wrote: | | krille wrote: | | Jacks are the fourth best hand in the game... nuf said... |
Actually they are the 5th best hand in hold em'... (i pulled this from hellmuths book under 15 best starting hands in hold em')
1. AA
2. KK
3. AK
4. QQ
5. JJ |
WIth all due respect to Helmuth (who I can't stand but thats another post) I'll take QQ over AK every single time. I do not believe QQ to be a dog to AK, and AK has to be suited to even be top 5 as well. I will however take AK over JJ every time.
In regards to original post, Jacks to me are the hardest hand to play after the flop. If the flop misses and brings undercards there is a desire to now get value out of the hand, but also to stop the drawing of hands that can beat you. If any overcards come you now have to decide if they hit the other person, a Queen being the hardest probably to let go to.
I'll limp early with JJ, raise moderate in middle position and raise big late.
I'm also hard pressed to call an all in with Jacks unless I'm a short stack. Money games are different of course, if I don't feel I'm already beaten I'll usually always call the all in and race with them. In fact I'd rather get my money all in preflop with them in money games, takes the guess work out of the hand. But thats just me. |
I'm not sure why anyone would want QQ instead of JJ against AK. In terms of just pairing up, 22, 33, 44, all the way up to QQ make no difference. They all are beat if an A or K comes up. However, JJ makes 4 straights, QQ only makes 3. 1010 would be the best hand to go up against AK with. It makes 5 straights. |
Yet its amazing when someone with AK gets pissed when a short stack goes all in with 33 and wins the pot, but doesnt say a word when they lose to qq or jj.
Posted Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:44 pm GMT by bigrazor
| yeltzen wrote: | | Jauron wrote: | | nickshepAK wrote: | | krille wrote: | | Jacks are the fourth best hand in the game... nuf said... |
Actually they are the 5th best hand in hold em'... (i pulled this from hellmuths book under 15 best starting hands in hold em')
1. AA
2. KK
3. AK
4. QQ
5. JJ |
WIth all due respect to Helmuth (who I can't stand but thats another post) I'll take QQ over AK every single time. I do not believe QQ to be a dog to AK, and AK has to be suited to even be top 5 as well. I will however take AK over JJ every time.
In regards to original post, Jacks to me are the hardest hand to play after the flop. If the flop misses and brings undercards there is a desire to now get value out of the hand, but also to stop the drawing of hands that can beat you. If any overcards come you now have to decide if they hit the other person, a Queen being the hardest probably to let go to.
I'll limp early with JJ, raise moderate in middle position and raise big late.
I'm also hard pressed to call an all in with Jacks unless I'm a short stack. Money games are different of course, if I don't feel I'm already beaten I'll usually always call the all in and race with them. In fact I'd rather get my money all in preflop with them in money games, takes the guess work out of the hand. But thats just me. |
I'm not sure why anyone would want QQ instead of JJ against AK. In terms of just pairing up, 22, 33, 44, all the way up to QQ make no difference. They all are beat if an A or K comes up. However, JJ makes 4 straights, QQ only makes 3. 1010 would be the best hand to go up against AK with. It makes 5 straights. |
wouldn't 88 be a better straight drawing hand against AK, seeing as there are five straights as well, but more cards in the deck to hit it with, b/c A or K is not needed?
Posted Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:29 pm GMT by Rayburn
JJ is in the B category if you are looking at Howard's pre-flop strategy
Posted Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:07 am GMT by yeltzen
quote="bigrazor" | yeltzen wrote: | | [quote="Jauronwouldn't 88 be a better straight drawing hand against AK, seeing as there are five straights as well, but more cards in the deck to hit it with, b/c A or K is not needed? |
You got it. 55 through 88 are as good as they get against AK.
Try getting someone on PartyPoker to believe that.
Posted Wed Dec 01, 2004 8:32 pm GMT by ViperX883
I agree that JJ is a very very hard hand to play... especially with several people in the game. I tend to try to limp most of the time, but if I'm on the button (or close to it) I will raise to 3xbb or thereabouts.
Also, in case any of you are wondering, statistically speaking (not theoretically) the 5 best hands are:
AA, KK, QQ, AKs, JJ
If you wanna see for yourself, check this out:
http://poker.worldzonepro.com/nofoldemholdem001020.html
Posted Wed Dec 15, 2004 2:20 pm GMT by Sherrif Lobo
Lost an all in hand with pocket jacks the other night....floped my set, went all in and lost to a set of Queens on the River....Damn this hand! 
Posted Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:59 pm GMT by BigSlugger09
| ViperX883 wrote: | I agree that JJ is a very very hard hand to play... especially with several people in the game. I tend to try to limp most of the time, but if I'm on the button (or close to it) I will raise to 3xbb or thereabouts.
Also, in case any of you are wondering, statistically speaking (not theoretically) the 5 best hands are:
AA, KK, QQ, AKs, JJ
If you wanna see for yourself, check this out:
http://poker.worldzonepro.com/nofoldemholdem001020.html |
I just checked Hellmouth's book. This is how he has it. I dont know where someone came up with him having AKs over QQ. Its on page 31 in his book
AA,KK,QQ,AK,JJ,etc
Posted Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:15 pm GMT by ViperX883
That site has statistical results from 400,000,000 randomly dealt hands at a 10-man table. Those are teh results when no one folds. Statistically, that is as accurate as it gets. Theoretically... well, that may be different.
Posted Fri Dec 31, 2004 12:09 pm GMT by Juliea344
Just felt like mentioning that I recently had pocket J's, one caller. Flop came J, A, x. Lots of betting (opponent held A x) Turn card J. Enough said. It will NEVER happen to me again.
Posted Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:45 pm GMT by majortato
If there are other people in the pot calling all-in other than AK, then QQ is obviously a favorite over JJ. However, if I'm going heads up all-in against AK, then I'd much rather have low pocket pair. If he hits A or K, he wins anyway...but if I hit a straight, I'm safe. with QQ, if I hit a straight, then there's only once case where he doesn't hit the straight...all other times, he has the better straight or we split.
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:43 pm GMT by buchkoba00
Pocket jacks don't suck at at all.
Like the other day when I doubled with with a jack on the flop and another on the turn.
Quads are fun.
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 5:15 pm GMT by Skribbles
Okay... I might be wrong but doesn't 22 have a better chance of winning vs AK? From anything I've ever seen ANY pocket pair is a minimum 52%-48% favorite over unpaired cards.
I'm not math wizard at all, but can some show me the math that calculates this.
Posted Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:25 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Personally I love pocket Jacks because they are easy to release when overcards hit and action comes at you... people have a harder time folding the three "heavy hitters." And, when that third J does hit a few percent of the time, you can usually slowplay it very well, because pocket JJ is not something a lot of people expect for some reason. Personally, it's one of my favorite hands in the game (although I play mostly limit, so the situation is slightly different).
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