Need immediate help-- Holdem Rules |
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Posted Sat Oct 04, 2003 11:57 pm GMT by ANTvenom13
Hey all-
Just finished a tournament (winner takes all) with some friends. Here's the situation. I went all-in, the other guy flips over his cards, and I respond "ah damn", assuming he folded and I got lucky-- he says that he was allowed to show his cards to see my reaction, and I say he wasn't. Does anyone know the official rule? If so please provide a link to a website where you find this
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Posted Sat Oct 04, 2003 11:59 pm GMT by karasz
sounds cheatish to me...
im pretty sure i read somewhere that once you show your cards you fold the hand... definitely check someone who knows the deal though-
Posted Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:29 am GMT by Geno
Right, in the games we play at home, this has cropped up.....
If it's a heads up and one player is all-in, we have always played that the player who the action is with CAN flip his cards if he wants and it is up to the player who is all-in to remain staid in his outlook.
I would think that the official rules would clear this up but I personally think that flipping ur cards provided there cannot be any action following u is perfectly alright. 
Posted Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:09 am GMT by highscty
I think your not allow to reveal your hands at any point (unless both already all in) and if you do you are disqualified from the hand.
Posted Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:07 pm GMT by mindgame
This may not be a pretty situation, but it's a house game and you use house rules...that means if it's happened before, ask the guys what they thought was the proper thing to do. In a casino you can always call the floor manager and get an impartial decision, but you have just have to go with the flow.
It really doesn't matter what the rules are...what matters is what the people in the game think if they'll even speak up. My favorite poker writer was a guy named Moorehead and he had advice for this situation which I always follow: be willing to lose an argument, even (and especially) when you know you are right. Don't risk winning the battle and losing the war (eg: making an enemy or not getting invited back).
Your goal is to beat this game. You want to do that consistently and handsomely. You can't do that if you are not gracious in both victory and defeat. I once won an argument, realized I'd made an ass of myself in doing so and started the next week's game by giving the other guy $40 bucks at the start of the game. I apologized for not being willing to consider his point of view and said I thought it best to split the pot with him. (I made sure I gave him more than half of what it was, too.) He and I never had another disagreement.
Sort of reminds me of a personal favorite poker quip (as usual it's just as true of life): You may shear a sheep as often as you wish, but you can only skin him once.
Posted Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:58 pm GMT by John MacEnroe
You are allowed show you're pocket cards whenever you want.
It is simply not done because most of the time it is THE stupidest thing to do - no is going to complain if you show them the nuts after you raised.
If you have been called all in and hold a Marginal all in hand (ie:JJ), you may flip over you're cards to get a reaction - its a feature of poker, I love flipping over QQ after an all in call and waiting for a reaction.
It's the rules ain't no way around it. Read Doyle Brunson - he will tell you ALL about it.
Posted Sat Oct 11, 2003 8:01 pm GMT by Geno
Well I'm glad u say that cos that is how I have always played! Thanx for finding out 
Posted Mon Oct 13, 2003 10:52 am GMT by mindgame
John (above) is absolutely right, exposing your hand is legal and does not constitute a "fold." In fact a fellow did it to me last night in a casino...oddly enough, right after he raised on the flop. As John said, it's pretty damn silly, especially in that situation. I'm still not sure what he was trying to do, since he had a pair of Jacks and the flop was a 7,8, Q. I happened to have A,Q so I quickly thanked him and re-raised. He acted offended, like I wasn't supposed to take advantage of his explanation for raising!? Even the dealer was perplexed by his behavior, but of course it WAS legal. Being stupid is usually legal.
BUT your opponent was trying to gauge your reaction before deciding whether to call. That at least made some sense, by I regard it as a a sort of poker equivalent of the cheap shot--like slow rolling a hand. I might have TOLD you my hand to see your reaction, then made my decision. That's not terribly uncommon.
* "Slow-rolling" is hesitating before exposing your cards when you have a lock or other sure win, making the opponent's hopes soar and then crushing him when you belatedly claim the pot with your superior hand. This is an unnecessary attempt to manipulate someone's emotions and will frequently humiliate and then anger a player. He may go on tilt afterwards. Your feelings were probably much like this, which is why I call his actions a "cheap shot."
Posted Tue Oct 14, 2003 8:38 am GMT by Tralfaz
Hey all:
I agree with the above. It is clearly legal to filp your cards in attempt to get a reaction. In fact, as someone pointed out Doyle Brunson wrote in his book that this was one of his favorite "tricks". The guy got you that time (probably read Super System) but now you are prepared if it happens again.
Posted Tue Oct 14, 2003 11:25 am GMT by mindgame
Well, crow's an aquired test anyway.
If Bunson endorses this move it's obviously not a cheap shot. He's above anything like that, but wily as a fox, they say.
If anything points to my fundemental weakness as a poker player it's my distaste for the no-limit game--the one Bunson says is the "cadillac." I guess I should go ahead and read that section of the book, since it's the only section he even wrote.
Posted Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:16 am GMT by xStratePhlushx
Any good poker player should be able to keep his cool even when he knows hes beat. Last week I got a guy to lay down the best hand because he tried that trick on me.
That said, I would check out the rules before you do this in a casino, especially in a tournament. Many places have strict rules about exposing your hand or even talking about your hand. One casino I play at will even disqualify you if you pull a move like that! On the World Poker Tour, as many of you probably saw on TV, if you expose your hand at any time the hand is considered dead (i.e. Layne Flack exposing his hand to Men Nguyen). Also it is illegal to expose your cards in the WSOP before making your move. Yall mentioned Doyle Brunson's book but that book is over 20 years old and many things have changed since then.
If it happens to you, keep your cool and don't let the move sway you. When it happened to me, I definately was thinking it was illegal, but I really didn't mind because his cards don't change ME in any way. Just don't be intimidated, and don't call and all-in if someone exposes Aces pre flop ...
-xStratePhlushx-
also, Doyle Brunson actually wrote all the sections (except Mike Caro's draw section) he just collaborated on the rest of the sections. The No limit section is the only one where he was the sole collaborator.
Posted Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:25 pm GMT by mindgame
Okay, this is too good. You can't just say you got the guy to fold the best hand and make his "trick" backfire....you've got to explain just how you did that!
Let's have the rest of the story. I could really use that info, and am certainly not the only one.
Posted Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:21 pm GMT by xStratePhlushx
lol ok this is what happened...
The guy to the left of me was real agressive and I outstacked him just a little, everyone folded to me in the small blind, he was in big blind. I only had an A7o. I thought it was a pretty good hand heads up and probably should have raised but I just limped to see the flop. The agressive guy, ofcourse, raised. I knew he was just trying to scare me so I called.
The flop came 3 7 J (2 diamonds)
I knew that I didn't want to give the guy a chance to outdraw me and I knew I had to make a big move or else he would either force me out or outdraw me.
I immediately said "ALL IN!" (almost imediately after seeing the flop)
He stared blankly at the board. I was curious as to what he had because it didn't seem like much of a decision. I figured two overcards.
I had been playing real conservative all day, because I didn't know most of these guys very well. He kept saying over and over "I just cant figure out what you'd go all in with."
Then he held up his cards and showed me just the jack. "I've got the Jack."
"Do you have a Jack?"
lol, I immediately thought of Rounders when Mike outplayed Jonny Chan. I said, "You know, I'm not really sure."
My heart was pounding out of my chest and I was praying he didn't notice.
There was a little idle banter but I was just trying to keep my cool. Eventually he mucked his hand. He had J9o , he said that anything I would have gon all-in with would probably have beat him. I just breathed a strong sigh of relief and kept playing.
Later he asked me if I'd tell him what I had, I decided to lie and told him I had trip 7's, no use telling him the truth and having him doubt me in the future.
I came in 4th in the tournament and if you want to read something else from the tournament read "88 beats QQ??"
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