Posted Sat Sep 18, 2004 11:33 pm GMT by StarlightCoast
I may get some major disagreement on this but I have come to the conclusion the the Pre flop raise should be taken out of the game plan with 2 exceptions.
1. When you are dealt pocket aces.
2. when there are only you and 2 other people at the table, maybe three but that may be pushing it.
Let's assume your under the gun and are dealt AK whether suited or not many would argue this to be a hand you raise with and anywhere from 3x to 5x is standard, but what does this do or better yet what does this prevent from happening? You add to a pot that probably 4 out of 5 times you will not hit anything on the flop so what then? Either you check it and tell the whole table you did not hit anything or you bet it out in fact semi bluffing. Let's face it what you have is Ace high an nothing more. If you are dealt AQs or QQ a definite preflop raise and then you get a flop of say K37 and only pne of the suits yours if you have AQs. If there's 3 or 4 others seeing that flop there's a damn good chance someone has the K and top pair so all you've done is add to the pot for the one who has hit top pair. Even if you come out betting there are very few people with top pair that will back off and rightfully so.
If you don't raise preflop you are at an advantage in certain ways. For instance if you do flop top pair you usually have the best kicker which will shock your opponents. They will keep betting if they too had the top pair. If you had AK and the flop was A59 someone holding an A9 is going to feel confident. Also you can find out just where the power lays at the table aside from what you may have. By not raising preflop you give someone else the opportunity to do so and this tells you or gives you an indication of what they have by both the size of the raise and how they play it postflop.
Going all in preflop is a definite don't do in my eyes. I feel you should never go all-in until after the flop. With 5 cards still remaining it's a coin flip at best and remember the hands you generally would go all-in with AA KK QQ AK and AQ are at the very least vulnerable. AA you need to go for it but that is the only exception and even then it may be better to slow play them. AK and AQ you are an underdog albeit a small one to any pocket pair leaving you only 6 outs to hit it. When your chips are low and you need to make a move then all-in is a must but other than that and perhaps AA forget it. Don't even make it a stray thought in your mind.
When there are only 2 others playing with you I believe this all changes. The preflop raise can be an awesome tool and I use it under these circumstances to my great advantage.
The above examples are based on NL SNG's 10 seat table but could be applied to NL ring games as well. Since I have started playing in this manner my results have greatly improved over the last month pulling in a $300 profit a few weeks back and $240 last week alone and last week my SNG in the money percentage was 58.3%. I know I'm going against what the experts say and everything you have read in the Holdem books, but it seems to work. Maybe it's just me and you have a better rate of hitting your flops when you preflop raise maybe not, but either way I think it's worth thinking about. I await the responses to the contrary that I will receive LOL because I know I am going against everything any professional or author will tell you, but I think I have made some valid points. Opinions for and against are eagerly awaited.
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Posted Mon Sep 20, 2004 10:13 am GMT by Nut Flush
Big Slick, the hand I love to hate.
Well, I think it deserves a raise preflop most of the time and here's why, if you hit the flop, you're in good shape. And if the flop is garbage, you can safely bet hoping to take the pot right there. And how much do you bet? I like to throw out a bet big enough to screw up the pot odds for drawing hands. For example, a $200 pot and a bet of only $50 is giving him 5:1 to call. A bet of $150 is giving him a little better than 2:1. I still think it's chips well spent. Where it gets tricky is if someone calls your flop bet. What to do on the turn? Do you show weakness and check? Do you bet at it again? I don't know why, but I've noticed where I play chasers are more likely to fold on the turn than they are on the flop. They're chances of catching the card they need are worse and another big bet will throw thier odds way off to call. Of course that's being extremely aggressive and that's not something I would be willing to do in the early rounds of a tourney.
Postion can play a huge factor in how you play AK as well as how many people called your raise preflop. If you get 2 or more callers, I'd be hesitant on going any farther than a bet post flop. If you do lead out with another bet after the flop and both call or one raises, it's time to dump the hand. And even if you have to lead off with a check on the turn, thats ok, they both may check as well. You gave them a free card but who cares, you bought one for yourself as well.
My ultimate goal with AK is just to get people to fold, either pre flop or on the flop. If it doesn't work, you can't stay attached to the hand, you'll just end up blowing more chips. I hit it often enough that it makes it worth it, and when it doesn't hit, I can steal the pot alot of times as well. I don't mind spending chips on it early to try and take a lead, if I miss I'm confident enough where I play that I can get back into good postion by being patient.
I think if playing the way you do gets you to the money, keep doing it. You are looking at the overall picture which is great instead of each sit n go as a seperate game. I tend to do the same thing. As long as I get to the money, I'm happy. Once I do get there, it's time to play to win.
Posted Mon Sep 20, 2004 12:01 pm GMT by wEbMaStEr
| StarlightCoast wrote: |
Let's assume your under the gun and are dealt AK whether suited or not many would argue this to be a hand you raise with and anywhere from 3x to 5x is standard |
Very few good players would agree with this, all you are going to do with a raise with AK from early pos. is win the blinds or lose a big pot.
Sy you're at a full table, you raise UTG and there's 8 or 9 players behind you, any of whom could re-raise you with a big pp, at which point you are probably going to be faced with a decision for most or all of your chips on a cointoss at best.
I'll go read the rest of your post now 
Yeah i pretty much agree with everything you say, the most important thing is position, say you are dealt a big hand at cutoff or later, it is often best to raise and take the blinds than allow one of the blinds to limp in and suck out, another reason this is a wise move is looser players will put you on a steal and call or re-raise.
Big pocket pairs do merit a raise in early pos. however, depending on the blinds i would either raise 3xbb (if less than 100/200) or 2xbb (if higher) this has the dual effect of (sometimes) taking out Ax hands and also if someone decides to re-raise you, you can then move all your chips in and put their hand to the test.
Posted Mon Sep 20, 2004 1:08 pm GMT by Dave B
Look at it this way, if you raise 4 times preflop and the flop comes K 9 8. You have top pair top kicker, strong. If you bet 1/2 pot and another has A9 or J 10 are they more likely to call now that they already have $$$ in the pot or when they have been able to limp in?
Reraise preflop lead to big pots after the flop.
Now, here is something that I see where I completely agree w/ your logic. How many people do you seen raise 3-4 times the blind w/ 55-JJ pocket pairs? Why? I like these hands, but I am either all in or limping. Med raises here are just throwing your money away. If you make a set, you have already scared people w/ your preflop raise. If you miss, there are almost certainly overcards on the flop.
Posted Mon Sep 20, 2004 5:23 pm GMT by Underbelly
I love preflop raises. If I've got a hand worth playing, I bet and bet big preflop. And then no matter what cpmes up on the flop, I bet big again. 90% of the time, everyone else folds.
You might say, what about those times when someones calls me? Fine. If I caught some cards, I play. If not and I get reraised I fold. I win so many little post, I cn take a loss on another hand once in a while. But eventually I hit the bigs ones and clean up.
Whenever I sit down at the table, I look for the guys who always just call the blinds no matter what they have and I know I've got them. I will! They are weak.
And if you don't believe me, read Super System.
Posted Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:06 pm GMT by Jauron
This sounds like a person who doesn't bluff well, if you can't bluff at pots then maybe you should do it. But when Q,2 gets all your money because you limped with A,K and the flop comes A,2,Q, you'll have nobody to blame but yourself, you told them to take a flop after all.
BTW, if your getting 4 callers routinely when you raise in a money game, then your not raising it correctly or if it's a tourney, and it's early in a tourney when you shouldn't be getting involved often anyway.
Overall I have a huge problem with that thinking. You should be striving for tight agressive, not a passive player who slow plays all his hands.
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