Posted Mon Sep 20, 2004 3:56 pm GMT by moose47
Ok, here is the situation. It's showdown time and there are two players left in the hand. Player A called the final bet so Player B shows his cards. He has bottom pair. Player A mistakenly believes that B has a straight so he mucks his hand. Normally this would be the end of it, but then Player B wants to see what was mucked so he turns over the cards to find that Player A had top pair.
We weren't playing for money or anything but what should have happened here? I would assume once the cards are mucked, Player A gives up his claim to the pot. However I also think it is way out of line for a player to see what another player has folded.
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Posted Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:04 pm GMT by Nut Flush
I'd say his hand is dead, Player B wins the pot.
However, if you bet and are called on the river and muck, the player left in the hand can request to see your cards.
Posted Mon Sep 20, 2004 4:05 pm GMT by Dave B
I think that we will get conflicting rules here, but I would say that if the cards can without a doubt be identified as his AND they never touched the muck, then the player w/ top pair will win the hand.
I see it as unsportmenlike to request to see a mucked hand, but it isnt that big of a deal. And I do see it at least once per 6 hours or so at a casino.
I think others will say that once mucked, a hand is dead. Even if it was determined to be a winner.
Posted Mon Sep 20, 2004 6:27 pm GMT by wEbMaStEr
yeah i'm pretty sure that once they hit the muck they are dead, but, if they never made it that far the rule, according to wsop NLHE rules are that the best hand wins, even if it has been wrongly called the losing hand.
serves the guy right for requesting a show. 
Posted Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:00 am GMT by redd38
best...thread...title...EVER 8)
I agree with the others, if his cards didn't make it to the muck then the pot is his
Posted Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:59 am GMT by freni126
stupid question maybe but.. I always figured "muck" was just "fold and give up", But now Im confused. Is "muck" an area on the table since someone wrote "make it to the muck".. ?
Sorry for asking such silly questions... 
Posted Tue Sep 21, 2004 2:39 am GMT by Fat Tony
the muck is just the pile of cards that contain the burn cards and any cards from hands that have been folded. it is usually just off to one side of where the dealer sits. if any cards touch the pile, they are considered dead. (with very few exceptions)
Posted Tue Sep 21, 2004 10:09 am GMT by freni126
thx Tony! Now it's all clear to me..
Posted Tue Sep 21, 2004 1:05 pm GMT by K-rug
This actually happened when I was at a table in Reno recently.
1) His hand is live unless he announces fold or the cards actually hit the muck.
however
2) His hand is dead if the other player turns them up. Only the player whose hand it is or the dealer can turn the cards up.
The guy at my table reached for the cards and poker room manager just happened to be there and yelled stop. She then explained that if he had touched those cards and flipped them up the hand was dead. The guy whose hand it was then flipped it up.
Posted Wed Sep 22, 2004 3:32 pm GMT by redd38
| K-rug wrote: | This actually happened when I was at a table in Reno recently.
1) His hand is live unless he announces fold or the cards actually hit the muck.
however
2) His hand is dead if the other player turns them up. Only the player whose hand it is or the dealer can turn the cards up.
The guy at my table reached for the cards and poker room manager just happened to be there and yelled stop. She then explained that if he had touched those cards and flipped them up the hand was dead. The guy whose hand it was then flipped it up. |
Wait, can you explain that better using Player A and Player B? If Player A won and tried to flip Player B's cards then Player A's hand would be dead? I'm confused.
Posted Sun Sep 26, 2004 11:56 pm GMT by K-rug
Sure. Let's say we are at the round of betting on the river/5th. Player A bets, Player B calls. Player A shows his cards. Player B mucks his cards (he doesn't say fold or anything. Just sort of throws them forward). Player A wants to see what Player B had.
At this point, if Player A touches Player B's cards, Player B's cards are dead. No matter what. That's what the card room manager told us. One person per hand. If another player touches another persons hand it invalidates the cards that are touched. If Player B wants to flip them over then fine. Or the dealer can. But Player A cannot touch Player B's hand. Period.
The dealer would/should probably assume that the forward motion of Player B means that Player B folded and would/should collect the cards anyway. Unless the dealer is slow or it is late and they are tired this will probably never happen. Then again, I did witness this exact thing so it does every know and then. If the dealer collects the card that would automatically make them dead as the cards would touch the muck whether or not player B actually folded. I also don't think you would have any arguement from Player B. Why? Who tosses they cards forward if they don't mean to fold? I don't. Another thing is that most places have a rule that if you toss your cards towards the center in a forward motion this means you fold. Much like a "knock" means "check".
I would imagine the reason for this comes from the one person per hand rule and to limit the potentional screwups. Although this is just a guess on my part. Or maybe it was something totally unqiue to the poker room at Circus Circus. Either way, I have to agree. Only the player whose cards they are or the dealer should ever TOUCH another players cards. No matter if it is Poker, Blackjack or a shell game. Don't touch'em. Especially in a casino.
Posted Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:02 am GMT by redd38
ok, that makes sense
Posted Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:41 am GMT by Underbelly
So next time I'm in a heads up and we are both All-in, before he can turn over his cards, I'm going to reach over and tap them. Therefor his hand would be dead, no matter what, and I would win!
Posted Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:36 pm GMT by K-rug
That would probably get you thrown out and the guy would punch you so in the end you would loose. But feel free to try it.
Posted Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:01 am GMT by Underbelly
That was just a joke.
Personally I think flipping over someone elses cards is one of the lowest things you can do in poker.
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