how good is lee jone's book? |
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Posted Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:51 pm GMT by darcy tucker
How good is lee jone's low limit hold'em book compared to lets say the limit holdem section in supersystem. Is it worth buying in the sense that it will teach me things that i don't already know that will help me play in a very loose game?
Last night I played in the loosest 5-10 game i've ever been in and found it awfully difficult to win without getting sucked out because of the amount of callers who wouldn't budge even with a raise. It got even worse when we played 6 handed and everybody took the flop each time. Doyle's advice on short handed play saying to not play looser just more aggressive didn't help the slightest. I needed to hit a flop with 6 players because all 6 players would call to see the flop.
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Posted Thu Sep 23, 2004 4:57 pm GMT by ORGrinder
lee's book, in my opinion, is BY FAR the best book for low limit out there.
even if one would disagree with me, at the very least they would tell you it's WELL worth the $$.
you should def get it if you're interested in low limit.
Posted Thu Sep 23, 2004 5:59 pm GMT by darcy tucker
When lee refers to low limit....he basically is referring to bad players who call a lot right? And can someone please give me the jist of a few sections of the book which will probably have new ideas for me.
Posted Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:27 pm GMT by howzit
starting hand requirements:
learning pot odds:
learning when to check-raise:
type-casting players:
Pretty useful, it helped my limit game when i started but know i find it too passive, which is probably what Lee jones would tell you himself.
Basically, he shows you situations to bet or raise so that players make MATHMATICALLY INCORRECT calls.
Posted Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:52 pm GMT by darcy tucker
Nothing there seems to be anything special. Everything you would learn in a normal beginners book.
Posted Thu Sep 23, 2004 7:21 pm GMT by ChkDeezNuts
I must say that I own almost every book that is out there....But Lee Jones book is by far the one that help me the most in my 5/10 game.
I recommend it.
It is a good starter book.....
Sklansky's Holdem' for Advanced Players is the Bible.
Posted Thu Sep 23, 2004 9:08 pm GMT by ORGrinder
i think passive isn't the right choice of words. too tight perhaps. i don't know about too passive.
sure his motto is "look for a reason to fold" but when you're playing against morons that's not always a bad motto.
if anything his book will give you a table image of a rock. not a passive player since he's not telling you to fold when you have a winning hand because someone scares you with a bet.
just know that if you play his system, your flop % will probably go way down. hehehe.
if you don't find any of those topics posted helpful to you though... you're a seasoned pro and should join the circuit.
as for me... whether it's a new concept or reveiew of an old one... if a poker books well written and has gotten good reviews... i'm going to read it regardless. any little bit of advice sharpens ones game. plain and simple.
Posted Thu Sep 23, 2004 11:35 pm GMT by snoogins47
| ORGrinder wrote: | if anything his book will give you a table image of a rock. not a passive player since he's not telling you to fold when you have a winning hand because someone scares you with a bet.
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Lee writes his book with one thing in mind: make the reader able to play a game that consistently beats the very fishy loose games.
There are some important concepts in there. It's about 20x more valuable than the limit hold'em section in supersystem, I would say.
However, Lee's book is just that: a begginer's book. I would heavily recommend Ed Miller's "Small Stakes Hold'Em..." had i personally read it. But from reading a whole lot of posts by him as far as strategy and theory goes, and reading many winning players praising the teachings of the book, I can say it'd be a worthy investment. The one thing I can't say, however, is what level the reading is really geared at.
What I mean is... well, lets do an example here. If a friend of mine was just starting out, and wasn't very mathematically inclined, I'd tell him to avoid buying Sklansky like the plague. However, i think David writes some of the best books on poker, period.
| Quote: | | sure his motto is "look for a reason to fold" but when you're playing against morons that's not always a bad motto. |
In some senses, that's true... however, as the table gets looser, and more passive, (assuming you're a solid player,) the number of hands that you can play profitably goes up with it.
Posted Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:46 am GMT by ScanX
Very good book, a must for a beginner...you don't need any knowledge before that.
and "Low Limit" doesnt mean for loose games but just that the blinds are low (anywhere between $0.1 and $10 I would say) and so the game is supposed to be pretty loose ("No fold'em hold'em")
I started learning poker with this book and it REALLY helped me.
I lost my first $50, read the book, redeposited $50, never looked back...that was 10 months ago.
After reading that I would recommend that you read Holdem Poker for Advanced players by David Sklansky. It's about fixed limit aswell but it has much more "tricks" and techniques. It's also written for medium stakes (blinds $30 - $60) but it can be applied to lower stakes too. I found that book even more interesting than Lee Jones's book but you really have to start with Winning Low Limit Holdem.
About the chapter about limit in SuperSystem (by Chip Reese isn't it ?) I would say it's no good to start learning poker...it's a good read after having read Sklansky's book.
Posted Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:08 am GMT by jwrussell
Darcy,
You are looking at this the wrong way. The limit section in Super System is geared at people playing with other SOLID players. Low Limit games typically have very FEW solid players.
Lee Jone's book is a great Low Limit book. If you think you already know quite a bit about low limit play then feel free to skip it, but at least pick up SSHE by Ed Miller. I think Lee Jone's book is great, but I'm already finding that SSHE has given me more than WLLHE. In this I disagree with ORGrinder. I don't think WLLHE is the "best" Low Limit Hold'em book, but I do agree that it's worth the money to pick it up. WLLHE and SSHE have two very different styles but both are good at improving your low limit game.
Again, it's hard for us to describe the differences without going into way too much detail, but the Limit section of SS vs SSHE or WLLHE is like the difference between Day and Night.
Posted Fri Sep 24, 2004 8:18 am GMT by Nut Flush
I recommend it as well. Some parts are pretty basic but overall I think it's a great Low Limit book. It got me started in poker but these days I prefer sng's and mtt's to any ring game. But in these low limit tourney games, you can apply the same principals. I am just amazed at the amount of people that are basically calling stations in tourneys. For the price, I'd say it's a must for any low limit player.
Posted Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:19 pm GMT by darcy tucker
I've "studied hard" both ken warren teaches hold'em and the limit section in supersystem. By the way I think the supersystem section is phenomenal but you guys are completely right about it not being meant for no fold'em hold'em.
I truthfully don't see the light yet. I know that those fishy games are supposed to be a lot more profitable because of the bad play but I find it like a lot of others to be so hard to win because of the sucking out. I find games in which people fold so much easier to win. I'm going to skip low limit hold'em by lee jones i think and buy small stakes hold'em. One more question regarding this.
You know how winning one big bet an hour is very good in the long run. Say you play a 5-10 game and make $10 an hour in 100 hours. That is obviously very good. In a 50cents-$1 game can you in the long run only expect to win around $1 an hour in 100 hours or will you most likely win more because of the increase of callers?
Posted Fri Sep 24, 2004 2:48 pm GMT by jwrussell
Darcy,
Just my opinion, but I think that one BB/hour stat comes from the world before online poker and further, I think it relates more to mid-high limit poker. I don't play somewhere that I can use poker tracker, but I'm positive that if I did my BB/hour on all the limits I've played so far (except 3/6 which I haven't played enough at yet) would all be well above 1bb/hour. Truth be told I think you can expect more than 1bb/hour at 5/10 as well.
OK I lied, I can use pokercharts.com to figure it out. Over 65 hours of 2/4 (I don't get to play NEARLY as much as I would like) I'm at an average of 3.5-5 BB/hour depending on whether you go with win rate(lower) or avg win rate(higher) (win rate=total return/hours, avg is session return/session hours averaged I guess). Now, I realize that that is no where near the long run, heck it's less than 2 weeks worth if I was playing "professionaly" 8 hours a day, but I'm still sure that the low limit bb/hour rate is substantiall higher than 1bb/hour. This is even more true when I take into consideration a week where I dropped 75+ Big Bets because I was simply playing poorly and tilting away money.
If I were a better player, or even if I had not "lost it" for that week, we would be looking at a solid 4BB/hour. I truly don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.
For the record: 3/6 runs right at 4 BB/hour over 14.5 hours. Like I said, not enough to say this is statistically viable.
Opinions all? I'm really curious to see where everyone else playing the Low Limits stands on this issue.
Posted Fri Sep 24, 2004 9:28 pm GMT by darcy tucker
Thanks guys for the input. I ordered small stakes hold'em instead of Lee Jones' book and hopefully it will help me out. I'll give you my opinion of it once I get it.
Posted Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:54 pm GMT by jwrussell
Definately fill us in on how you like it. Anyone have any thoughts on my post above?
Posted Tue Sep 28, 2004 10:04 pm GMT by Murs
I am saving up to get this book with my FPP's as pokerstars.
Posted Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:44 pm GMT by darcy tucker
I received "Small Stakes Hold'em" in the mail today. It's very big and covers a lot of issues that are taking me loads of time to understand. I'm not too sure exactly how good it is just yet but I am sure to write a better review in a bit. If anybody has any questions about the book feel free to ask.
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