Heads up question about S&M HPFAP |
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Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:05 pm GMT by USgeni
Hi guys,
I've been reading the heads up section in PFAP and don't seem to get a point their making (page 203 for owners).
Situation to defend the BB to an aggressive player..
You're heads up on the BB with QsTs and called your opponent's raise preflop.
Flop comes As, 9s, 4d
Your opponent bets and you call.
Turn is 4s
You check and your opponent bets...
Here comes the part I don't get: "...if this is a player will not automaticly bet again on fourth street, you should fold...."
They write "...not automaticly bet..." which imo means he has a hand, but what if he has a pair of aces high kicker, or two pair, or a set? I think the only few hands you should be scared of are a flush with higher kicker, a full house or a quad 4's.
I don't see why one should lay down a made hand: flush with Q kicker in a heads up situation?? (in a ring game it would be of course a total different situation)
Why not call or even raise?
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Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 12:20 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| USgeni wrote: | | I think the only few hands you should be scared of are a flush with higher kicker, a full house or a quad 4's. |
I think the point is the kind of player they're describing is likely to have one of the hands that already has you beat. You need a lot of info on your opponent before you can reach that conclusion, but the basic idea is if the opponent in question does not normally continue betting on the turn after betting the flop, then the bet on 4th street indicates that they don't fear the flush. They'll have the nut flush, quads or a boat.
Calling in this situation doesn't get you any information though. If you're going to continue playing the pot, you have to raise.
*edit - I have to read the section again in context when I get home, so I reserve the right to change my mind later.  *
Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:13 pm GMT by USgeni
I think the point they're trying to make is indeed that you should fold if a player doesn't fear a possible flush.
However, when I end up in such a situation (for example in a $5/1 sng last 2,3 or 4), and i'm heads up, I think lot's of my opponents would bet even if they have either a set, high pair or two pair!
So it seems folding would be a mistake here.
Plus the fact that chip stack could also a major factor in their betting behaviour.
Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:23 pm GMT by Jauron
I don't agree with the automatic fold, if it is an agressive player he's just as likely to bet with the flush on the board anyway, he doesn't want to check it in case your still a card away, and he doesn't want to check it if he thinks you'll check to him on the river, were he can either put a big bet out there and scare you, or simpley check it down.
As for it being queen high, you knew it would be on the flop, so there is no point in drawing to it if your not going to think queen high is good.
The board pairs, this can be a little scary, but I'm still going to assume my flush is good most of the time since the board paired to make the flush, not right away.
It's going to take a very big bet to get me to lay down this hand now, and I don't think you check it once you hit it, I think you bet it out right then, but then I would of bet it out on the flop as well in most cases.
Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:23 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| USgeni wrote: | | However, when I end up in such a situation (for example in a $5/1 sng last 2,3 or 4), and i'm heads up, I think lot's of my opponents would bet even if they have either a set, high pair or two pair! |
Those opponents are not the type they're referring to in the book, but once again, it comes down to knowledge of your opponent. Additionally, I think the book is largely geared toward cash game play. Tournaments are a completely different animal. I'll have to look at it again to refresh my memory. It's been a while since I read it.
Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:47 pm GMT by USgeni
Totally agree with you Jauron.. There is no point in drawing to your flush if don't fhink it will hold up.. And it would take a lot to lay that hand down for me as well!
Sean, I think your right about the book not being written for online low buy-in sng's..  ...and basicly it comes down to kwowing (or at least think you know) your opponent's game, but then again that can be rather difficult in online poker if, especially sng. So I think basicly I would prefer raising on fourth street and if reraised consider folding.
Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 2:47 pm GMT by Jauron
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | USgeni wrote: | | However, when I end up in such a situation (for example in a $5/1 sng last 2,3 or 4), and i'm heads up, I think lot's of my opponents would bet even if they have either a set, high pair or two pair! |
Those opponents are not the type they're referring to in the book, but once again, it comes down to knowledge of your opponent. Additionally, I think the book is largely geared toward cash game play. Tournaments are a completely different animal. I'll have to look at it again to refresh my memory. It's been a while since I read it. |
What kind is the book refering to? I don't have it so I don't know. Is it the tight agressive or just agressive.
Tight agressive isn't going to have A,4 in most cases. Could he have pocket 4's? Well I guess if it's me, he's gonna get paid off if he does. Pocket 9's? Again, I just ran into a great hand, nothing I can do really once I set out to draw to the flush.
Now if we are talking about a tight agressive player, he would have to have K,J of spades to beat me on the flush, Thats all he could have really for the flush, because the A,Q,10 are all used up. I don't buy the bigger flush. A tight agressive player is not going to raise me with K,8 and lower.
So we have the following hands to consider: K,J of spades (very very unlikely) Pocket Aces, Pocket 9's, Pocket 4's or A,4. Those are the only hands you can consider a tight agressive player to have preflop.
Now we need more info on his bets, then we can decide if these hands are likely, but we don't have that info (or at least I don't) so who knows.
If this is a cash game, I do not see how you can get away from this hand at this point. You have to have a little gamble in you in cash games anyway, this is the perfect time to gamble.
Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:05 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Jauron wrote: | | What kind is the book refering to? |
| USgeni wrote: | | Here comes the part I don't get: "...if this is a player will not automaticly bet again on fourth street, you should fold...." |
This isn't giving any indication of the other player's style, except that we know the opponent is not likely to bet the scare card on 4th unless he can beat that hand.
I will read it tonight instead of trying to muddle my way through it this way.
Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 3:07 pm GMT by USgeni
It's Sklanski & Malmuth's - holdem poker for advanced players..
And the situation they describe is the one where u are heads-up in the BB and your opponent uses the "almost-allways-bet" tactic to be almost certain of longterm profit.. that is if you don't play the way they describe
So basiscly he plays loose agressive..
Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:21 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| USgeni wrote: | Situation to defend the BB to an aggressive player..
You're heads up on the BB with QsTs and called your opponent's raise preflop.
Flop comes As, 9s, 4d
Your opponent bets and you call.
Turn is 4s
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Ok, now I see why this didn't make any sense...you don't have the suits correct! In the edition I have (3rd edition, 5th printing, Sept 2003), on p. 203, it shows the player's holdings to be QsTh, a flop of As9s4d and a turn card of 4h. Not only do you not have a flush, you don't even have a draw!
Posted Wed Oct 06, 2004 5:51 pm GMT by USgeni
My humble appologies.....
I couldn't find the emoticon bangin his head against the wall.. that would be in place here!!
Must have overlooked it since it's a black & white copy.. i don't know
Anyway, sorry again and thx for the replies..!
Posted Thu Oct 07, 2004 12:04 am GMT by Jauron
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | USgeni wrote: | Situation to defend the BB to an aggressive player..
You're heads up on the BB with QsTs and called your opponent's raise preflop.
Flop comes As, 9s, 4d
Your opponent bets and you call.
Turn is 4s
|
Ok, now I see why this didn't make any sense...you don't have the suits correct! In the edition I have (3rd edition, 5th printing, Sept 2003), on p. 203, it shows the player's holdings to be QsTh, a flop of As9s4d and a turn card of 4h. Not only do you not have a flush, you don't even have a draw! |
Good lord, that changes EVERYTHING. I was about to suggest you take that book back before the clear up.
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