loose limit: limping in from late position with premium hand |
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Posted Tue Nov 02, 2004 5:16 pm GMT by krakajak
I've been reading T.J. Cloutier's book on limit holdem (Love this book by the way. The format is a dialogue between TJ & Tom McEvoyso its really easy to follow, and I find myself remembering bits and pieces of it while I play more than I do with other books)....
Anyway, TJ says that when there are already a bunch of limpers, so it's too late to drive them out, you should consider just limping in with a premium hand, and raising the flop. His rationale is that if you raise, they're likely to check to you on the flop, and with all that money in the pot, they'll be getting good odds to call one bet and chase. On the other hand, if you limp, a mid or late position player will likely bet into you, and you can raise. Since the pot will be much smaller, and since they now have to call two bets, it will be easier to drive the chasers away.
Here's an example (not from the book): 4 limpers. You have AA on the button. A limper in early position has Kh 2h. Another limper two seats before you has Jd 8d. BB has Q6o.
You raise pre-flop, BB calls, and the flop is Jc, 6d, 2s. The limpers check, and you bet. BB and the limpers figure it's only one bet to call, and with 13 bets already in the pot, they're getting good odds to chase. If a J, 6, 2, 8, Q, K, two hearts or two diamonds come, you lose.
On the other hand, if you limp, it checks around to the guy with Jd 8d. He bets, you raise. Now the BB and the guy with K2 have to call 2 bets, with only 9 bets in the pot. they fold, and now all you have to worry about is a J, 8, or two diamonds.
Anyway, I keep meaning to try this out, but I'm such a creature of habit. Whenever I get a monster, I raise. I any of y'all have tried this, please share your results.
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Posted Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:43 am GMT by Nut Flush
What limit is TJ referring to in that book? Low, mid, high? I think that makes all the difference.
I still believe in low-limit, raising pre-flop with the best hand is the way to go simply to build up the pot. Whether there is 13 bets or 9 bets in the pot on the flop, I think the chasers will still chase no matter what.
However, in mid to high limit where the players(most of them anyway) are more aware of pot odds, limping may be a good strategy.
Posted Wed Nov 03, 2004 12:31 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
The major problem with this strategy is it assumes you know from whom the flop bet is coming. In the example you cited, if the bet comes from the BB and not the person immediately to your right, you'll have the exact same situation...making a raise that has no chance of protecting your hand.
Posted Tue Nov 16, 2004 5:04 am GMT by snoogins47
On one hand, keeping the pot small makes your opponent's post flop play worse for them.
On the other, raising preflop makes your opponents' play preflop worse for them.
I think you're almost certainly better off pushing when you have the preflop equity, especially in a looser low limit game, where you're going to get people calling with almost anything, and you're hardly giving away the strength of your hand because nobody is paying enough attention to realize that you're representing a strong hand.
Sean makes another good point here: The only way you're going to drive people out of a pot after the flop, typically, is making them call a few bets cold. If there's 7 limpers, the pot is going to be big enough for any sort of reasonable draw to stick around and see a turn card anyway.
The question is, can NOT pushing a preflop edge actually result in more EV later in the hand? Of course it CAN, but I think in general, you're going to be better off raising.
Posted Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:17 am GMT by Verdi
I check-raised the turn when I hit my nut straight. The guy after me had been raising all the time so I guessed he would continue to do so... And he did. When I reraised him the two players who had called his bet felt like they had to call my reraise as well. When I bet on the river all three called as well. Poor sods.
I think this could work really well to build a bigger pot if you're certain that you have the strongest hand and that someone else will raise after you.
Had I bet on the turn I would have lost out on a round of bets as they wouldn't have reraised me. In fact, they would probably have folded on the river to my bet. So that means maybe 6xBB less for me.
I felt rather good about that play. I have read the table and exploited their weaknesses. And it worked! I won a pot double the size of what the usual bet bet bet strategy would have won me.
Admittedly, this won't work all the time. Had that guy checked I would possibly have lost out on a bet instead.
Posted Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:09 pm GMT by suitedaces84
I understand the point T.J. makes. I think there is more money in a pre flop raise here. Even if all three call you to the river with 5-7 outs each as a result. You'll make more in the long run taking down fewer big pots than more small pots. It's my goal to get several callers who have significantly worse hands than me, even if it does mean the occasional rivering.
Now for the best part: when you do get rivered you can post the hand history on this site, and complain about how everyone else sucks at poker because they cracked your high pockets!
Posted Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:28 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Verdi wrote: | | I think this could work really well to build a bigger pot if you're certain that you have the strongest hand and that someone else will raise after you. |
Exactly. The trick is to figure out which seat is likely to show aggression, and then decide how best to make that fit your plan. If the person immediately to your left is likely to bet or raise, then you have to decide what you want to do with the people remaining behind:
1) If you want to protect your hand, you lead out, let the aggressive player raise and force everyone behind to call 2 bets cold.
2) If you want to build the pot, you check, allow the aggressor to bet, and then raise forcing the callers in between to call a second bet.
This is one of those "edges" you have to skate to have any chance of controlling pot odds in a limit game.
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