Sit N Go Specific Question Regarding KK...... |
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Posted Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:56 pm GMT by nicthestick
I have a Question Regarding KK preflop in a 10 handed Sit n Go. Are you comfortable getting it allin preflop with KK? Or do you want to wait and see if the flop brings an A to beat you, and cut your losses?
Situations Im thinking of are like this....
1.) Hero is in LP with average stack. There are 3 limpers with blinds at 30/60. Hero has KK and Raises to 200. MP player reraises the min....... You dont think he is on AA. What do you do??
2.) Hero in EP Has KK. same blinds and stack size as #1. Hero raises the pot. Gets reraised the pot from an aggressive player. Do you flat call, or reraise all in??
the reason Im asking is that playing KK is a MAJOR Weakness for me. I had it twice in SNGs today... allin preflop. Lost em both to AK, and AQ.
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Posted Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:01 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| nicthestick wrote: | | Are you comfortable getting it allin preflop with KK? |
I'll push every time.
Posted Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:52 pm GMT by K-rug
| Quote: |
Situations Im thinking of are like this....
1.) Hero is in LP with average stack. There are 3 limpers with blinds at 30/60. Hero has KK and Raises to 200. MP player reraises the min....... You dont think he is on AA. What do you do?? |
If you don’t think he is on AA, then re-raise all-in pre-flop or at the very least the majority of his chips if you can. Leave him with about 20% of his stack. That is usually enough to make people waiver. With his minimum raise you can reasonably give him credit for something like, QQ or AKs. Possibly JJ but that is pretty ballsy to re-raise with, unless he is testing you. So make it uncomfortable for him call. You are better off making him go all-in or having to bet the majority of his stack to win pre-flop. Now if you want to slow play it, just flat call. Maybe he won’t hit trips, two pair or get an Ace. Also consider another minimum raise if you want to slow play it. You are taking your chances though and make sure you can read him. Don’t even look at the flop when it happens. Watch him looking at the flop then look at the flop after he bets. Try to figure it out from there. What you don’t want to happen is for him to limp in and catch something. Online you are blind. In LP watch how he comes out of the gate after the flop. Again, make it uncomfortable for him. With most people it will be obvious if he did or didn’t catch anything. But then again, he may be playing QJs just because and flopped a flush.
| Quote: |
2.) Hero in EP Has KK. same blinds and stack size as #1. Hero raises the pot. Gets reraised the pot from an aggressive player. Do you flat call, or reraise all in??
the reason Im asking is that playing KK is a MAJOR Weakness for me. I had it twice in SNGs today... allin preflop. Lost em both to AK, and AQ. |
The last live game I played in over a week ago, the last hand unfolded exactly like your situation. Player A in EP had KK and bet pot. Everyone folds to me. I re-raise with AKs three times his bet. He thought about it long and hard and re-raised all-in (about twice as much as was
committed). Now the pressure is on me. I don’t put him on AA. Just a feeling I had. KK or QQ is more likely. If he has KK I am hurting with a 33% chance of winning pre-flop. Not horrible but no where near what I would like. The fact that he thought about it so long leads me to believe he was trying to convince himself that I didn’t have AA so his KK would stand. Sadly, I was feeling a little cowboyish and called almost certain it was AKs against KK but hoping he had QQ which is almost a coin flip. He flipped his cards up and I was right AKs vs KK. In the end I lost. I had a few more dollars than him so it didn’t clean me out. But I never recovered.
Flat calling gives the other guy the opportunity, albeit a small one, to hit something. With EP and having KK if everyone folds I assume the other person has Ax or a middle/small pocket pair. Usually because people who get folded to in MP or LP play Ax not giving credit to EP with a pot raise thinking he is trying to buy it with mediocre cards or trying to hit an Ace themselves. People can also justify a pot raise call to themselves thinking, “I’ll just see the flop.” with a middle/small pocket pair. Heck, I’ve done it. Will do it again. I see it all the time. If you are the one with KK either go all-in or make it extremely uncomfortable for them to call. You want them to squirm. The fact you lost to AK while harsh happens. With AQ you are about a 72% favorite. Sucks, but you did the right thing. The odds were with you. Lady luck just wasn’t.
Posted Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:18 pm GMT by nicthestick
this question is specific to online sit n gos.
live cash games are a different animal altogether, as are mtt. In a sng, I find that people think that AJ is the holy city, and will not fold it for anything.
Posted Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:50 pm GMT by K-rug
Yeah I realize that Nic. I would still stick to playing it the same online or live. In the long run you will win. You can't control someone calling with AQ if they are going to do it online or off. You can only make them think about it and if they do make them pay when you win. You will win more times than not if you put them all-in or make them bleed heavily.
You just happened to get busted twice. It stings. But like I said before you did it right.
Posted Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:40 pm GMT by BigSlugger09
K-rug, you may win more often than not, but if you lose one out of every three or four times in this situation you could still be losing money in a SNG.
I would tend to agree with you that pushing with KK against Ace anything is a good play, but it could be dangerous and may not be the best play in a SNG, where one bad beat and you lose $10, $20, $30 or whatever the buyin was.
I guess I am just trying to look at it from a different perspective, but its a very good question, and I guess I wouldnt really know the answer to it. Maybe if there were a mathmatical solution for it (adjusted by the fact that its a SNG of course).
Posted Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:49 pm GMT by fundmyhabit
In both situations I would come back over the top all-in.
Posted Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:36 am GMT by nicthestick
OK. Big slugger got the Question. In my experience, 70% of sng players will call an allin bet w/ AK, AQ, or AJ, or even A10. I know that KK is a Big Fav against all of those hands, But all it takes is a Naked A to Knock you out of the tournament, and take all of your money. Early in a MTT, it is an Easy push imo. Just trying to get opinions from everyone here....
Posted Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:38 pm GMT by ViperX883
I think that you try to kick a few people out with a decent preflop raise and then see a flop. However, if you are forced to push I think you have to make that call every time.
Posted Sat Dec 18, 2004 7:30 pm GMT by K-rug
I understand that aspect of it BigSlugger. However and please do not take any offense to this, but you cannot play with scared money. If you win, you gain a huge advantage over the rest of the table in chips. In a SnG, we all know chips are power. With taking out an opponent who has roughly the same amount of chips as you and assuming the average chip count is what you have, the tides have turned and you should be able to parlay that into a win of some sort. Even third place pays out in most online card rooms.
As far as starting hands go, KK is pretty much the cream of the crop. So all-in pre-flop action is great, especially in a SnG when you have KK. I am big on odds and numbers. Therefore, while yes, A6o can knock you out if the other person happens to hit an Ace and you are out the money for the SnG, a win is huge. If they have a pocket pair, even better for you as most people get overconfident with QQ, JJ or AK. It just does not get much better for you holding KK statistically. Again, if you lose, you are out. If you win, they are out and you gain a large advantage. I personally do not worry with what they “might” catch when I am holding KK and a 3 to 4 favorite with a chance to swing things drastically in my favor. Win and you should be able to parlay that into something to cover the loss if you happened to have KK four times, won three and lost once.
Whether it is a SnG or ring game, there just simply are not many situations where you have the upper hand pre-flop. No pun intended, heh. Winning would give you a respectable advantage in a SnG. So the question should be, is KK worth risking all your chips pre-flop to gain a serious advantage over the others at the table and increasing the likely hood that you will win, place or show? A loss and you are out. A win and you should be able to make something off it. Personally, and it is just the style I play, I say yes it is. Others may have a different style.
It does stink that you lost twice with it Nic and it is a good question. But don't let it taint the strength of the hand you hold pre-flop and the potential outcome that you are a majority favorite to win.
Posted Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:11 pm GMT by ViperX883
Speaking of KK, I came up against AA with KK the other day. I was second in chips and chip leader went all-in. I called and got knocked out in 4th, so no cash there. First time I've ever had that happen.
Posted Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:21 pm GMT by BigSlugger09
Ok, K-rug I am going to try to disagree here just for the sake of argument, but I may end up proving you right so bear with me.
Lets say you are playing a $20 + 2 sit and go. You are dealt KK with about the average stack. Now, someone with about the same size chip stack raises you, and you consider reraising allin. Now, if you win it puts you in great position to cruise into a cash spot (We'll say top 3 for this example). If you lose, there goes your buyin. A quick loss of $20.
I will keep this example specific to only when a player calls your allin with an ace and something else.
Now, pocket kings are expected to win 70% of the time against something like Ace-Queen, so I will round that to pocket kings will win two out of three times.
So, two-thirds of the time, you will be put in a great position to get some cash. One out of three times, you will lose $20.
On most sites that I have played on, 3rd place usually gives around 100% profit, so it would be something like $40 for third, $60 for second and $100 for first in a $20 buyin.
If you can get a 3rd place 50% of the time that you win with your kings, the site will win (lose $6 to entry fees). You will lose $20 the one time your kings snap, lose $20 when you do win with your kings but lose later on, and you will win $40 once.
If you place in first or second one of those two times, you will make a profit.
So, I guess what it really comes down to is whether or not you are confident in taking an early chip lead into a cash spot consistently. And, if you really dont think you can get third or better 50% of the time when you jump out to a lead, I guess you arnt going to make much money off of sit and gos anyway.
I figure that the times someone has AA against you and the times some1 has a lower PP against you will cancel eachother out and maybe even give you a slight advantage towards wanting to push with KK.
So, if you are certain that your opponent DOES NOT have AA, then you should reraise all-in most of the time. If you feel your opponent has the Aces, well its a different story and you would probably want to go with your gut and just call his raise. So, I guess I proved you right K-rug as I suspected I would. It is an interesting topic to think about, and Im still not 100% sure that pushing all-in in that situation is the answer.
If I were to use a guideline for myself, I would say that if you have more than 35-40% of your chips in the pot its a definite push allin if you are sure he doesnt have AA.
Posted Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:27 pm GMT by BigSlugger09
Also, what I didnt take into account was that the chances of someone else also being dealt an ace at the table are relatively high when 8,9 or 10 handed (I think its around 60%), so Kings almost have 4 to 1 advantage when two people at the table got an ace.
Posted Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:05 pm GMT by K-rug
Man I am getting long winded or type’ed in my old age. Bare with me. I love this site for this reason alone. Freindly bantering around of opinions and philosophy.
There is actually one itty bitty flaw in your example. KK vs A9o is a 71.3% favorite (cardplayer.com poker odds calculator) heads-up. This is actually closer to three out of four (75%) as opposed to rounding it down to 66% for two out of three as you did for your example. I only bring this up because it does change things. Three out of four instead of two out of three. As I said, I am a sucker for odds.
I also do not think it is a matter of proving right or wrong. It comes down to playing style. If everyone played the odds then poker would be predictable. I do not think you should push all-in in every situation. There are many, many factors that should also be taken into consideration. However, to keep things on the topic of this thread, in everyone one of Nic’s examples you have someone re-raising when you are holding KK and we know that person is going to re-raise. In those situations, yes, I do not think re-raising the re-raise all-in is a bad move. In general, if it comes to an all-in with you holding KK pre-flop, you are not looking too bad and you cannot second guess yourself.
However, if you are in EP and raise with everyone folding but one guy who raises it the minimum, an all-in re-raise by you would probably force him to fold. If it is early in a tournament than you steal 15 in chips from the blinds or thereabouts. In that case, no, it is not worth it. Now if it is late in the tourney that is a different situation. Also, if you are in EP, you raise, everyone calls and the last guy raises the pot, then see Nic’s example #2 and an all-in might be worth it depending on the amount of people calling and pot size. In that case, even several hundred in chips would give you a bit of an advantage if everyone folded.
Posted Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:13 pm GMT by BigSlugger09
Yes, you are right, I did get lazy in my calculations there. It is most certainly closer to three in four that two in three.
And also agree with you on the other things that you said. The decision that you must make depends on many factors. Like you said, position, blinds, and the previous betting of the hand (like whether he raised the min. or much more, etc) are all very important.
But, nic did say that in his experience these people will call an all-in with any ace 70% of the time. So, even if you are in EP it may be worth raising all-in right there. Just a thought because the chances of at least one person getting an ace are very high.
Posted Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:41 pm GMT by Nut Flush
If I'm put all in preflop with Kings, I'll always call. Sure you'll lose to AA every once in awhile, but more times than not you'll find yourself up against QQ, JJ, TT, and even smaller pairs.
However, since this is a SnG where once your chips are gone, you go home, it can sometimes be better to not go all in pre-flop. I'll try to explain as best I can.
Scenario 1 - faced with a re-raise holding KK you decide to push all in and get called. Now you only have one way to win the pot, you must show the best hand at the river. Turns out the guy had AQ and the flop is all rags. But of course, he catches his lucky Ace on the river.
Scenario 2 - faced with a reraise holding KK you decide to call. Same situation, flop is rags and your opponent has AQ. Now you have two ways to win the pot, your opponent can fold to a bet or you can show down the best hand. A bet or raise on the flop here more times than not will win you the pot if there is no help for your opponent. If he does call an all in now with his AQ, well add him to your buddy list.
I've found that people will go all in with anything from AK down to AT, sometimes even lower if they're suited. And I usually lose to the Ace on the turn or river. However, if they get no help on the flop, they will most likely fold.
I'm not saying KK is not good enough to go all in with preflop, like I said above, I'll do it anytime if the situation forces it. I'm just saying there is more to NLHE tourney strategy than gettting all the chips in preflop and letting the cards decide the outcome.
Posted Tue Dec 28, 2004 10:53 am GMT by suitedaces84
| nicthestick wrote: | | the reason Im asking is that playing KK is a MAJOR Weakness for me. I had it twice in SNGs today... allin preflop. Lost em both to AK, and AQ. |
Getting beat by AK or AQ with a KK and a pre flop all in is not a weakness in your game it's just being outdrawn. Anytime you can get a preflop all in with KK take it. If you lose it's not your fault.
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