how to protect against flush draws |
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Posted Mon Dec 27, 2004 10:41 pm GMT by greathuskie
what is your method for protecting against a flush draw...
say you hold AQo, flop comes AQ4, 2 diamonds
how do you protect the flush draw? i mean bet enough to take out flush draws but not to much to bet everyone out..very hard to do
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Posted Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:50 pm GMT by Iron Butt
Well, there's lots of possible situations there, you didn't even specify limit/NL... in general you're looking to make a healthy bet and/or raise. Ideal situation might be NL, an EP player with AK who bets the pot, you raise for the amount of the pot again, flush draw on the button now is faced with calling two large bets for the amount of the pot and so knows he's trailing two hands and facing a terrible pot odds situation. EP might fold but winning a small pot is better than etc. (WASPIBTLABO? Nah...) In limit you might try for a check-raise here but only if you're damn sure you're going to get one, no free cards is the first commandment here.
Posted Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:35 am GMT by Nut Flush
In limit I'd lead off with a bet.
No limit in early position I'd lead off with a pot sized bet, middle or late I'm raising any bet that was made.
I don't ever give a free card when two to a flush or straight are showing. If they want to chase, they're gonna pay. The only time I'd go for a check raise is if there was some heavy raising preflop with at least 2 other people. If you're sure someone has an Ace, chances are they'll bet for you. Still, I like betting better because anybody with AK will call anyway or most likely raise. However if you check, they may wait to bet the turn when the bets are larger and you just lost money.
Most of the time it does not matter how much you bet and how bad the pot odds are for them to chase, they'll do it anyway. I just try to get as much as I can from them when they don't hit.
Posted Tue Dec 28, 2004 8:52 am GMT by Dave B
Depending on you situation, sometimes you can extract the most value by letting them chase. Remember, they will miss their flush 64% of the time. If you can assume this risk, you can really get some nice pots.
For example-small blinds, AA raise 100 2 callers. Flop Ad7h2d. Flopped top set, only str8 or flush will beat you, board pairs you have nuts or 2nd nuts. Bet 150, now, anyone on a flush draw can call and for 150 they will win 450. Turn blank, now lets assume only one caller, 600 pot bet 150. Now they dont have pot odds for a call of 150, but you know they will-most players chase. They really only have 7 outs, since they dont know you have a set, they think they have 9.
Now-river, if you still have the nuts, you can check or fire again. A check screams out, missed my flush draw. If the board pairs and it is a diamond....BINGO, hopefully they were on a flush draw and you can really pound them. If a diamond hits, then you have to be ready to let the hand go if they bet too much.
Posted Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:06 pm GMT by QuietOne
64% of the time you'll hit your flush after the flop. Didn't seem that way for me last time I played. I'll have to figure out what I did to anger the poker gods!
Posted Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:29 am GMT by alphakenny1
there are a number of ways to attack this situation. but the typical play is to lead out and bet. in no limit, in depends on the player. if he's an agressive player i'd probably do a check raise since it almost certain he will lead out with his flush draw. if its a tight player i'd bet out. but in general in no limit i will probably come with a good sized bet on the flop. in limit the players will chase no matter what, let them chase so bet out in limit.
Posted Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:44 pm GMT by ViperX883
| QuietOne wrote: | | 64% of the time you'll hit your flush after the flop. Didn't seem that way for me last time I played. I'll have to figure out what I did to anger the poker gods! |
No... 64% of the time you will miss your flush after the flop, and that's assuming you hit two cards of your suit on the flop.
Posted Mon Jan 24, 2005 10:20 pm GMT by pokerislife
The trick to this situation is definitely a pot sized bet. You want to bet enough to get the opponent to be making a bad call if he calls, but not enough to just scare him away. When you bet the pot he doesnt get good pot odds to draw, but when you do this you want to be relatively certain that you have the best hand before making this bet. Usually the pot bet with top pair is only a strong move with 3 or 4 people in for the flop and no big raises preflop. In other cases you want stronger hands before making this bet.
Posted Thu Mar 31, 2005 3:09 pm GMT by RevJJ
| pokerislife wrote: | | The trick to this situation is definitely a pot sized bet. You want to bet enough to get the opponent to be making a bad call if he calls, but not enough to just scare him away. When you bet the pot he doesnt get good pot odds to draw, but when you do this you want to be relatively certain that you have the best hand before making this bet. Usually the pot bet with top pair is only a strong move with 3 or 4 people in for the flop and no big raises preflop. In other cases you want stronger hands before making this bet. |
Agreed. You have to put pressure on them to make a bad call. I busted a guy out of a 10 player $25NL ring game the other night because I caught him semibluffing with 4 to a flush on the flop. I had pocket jacks and raised 3 x the BB from the small blind. He had limped in earlier and called my bet. 2 players. The flop came rags with 2  . I was first to act and bet the pot and he immediately raised me (doubled my bet). No straight possibilities and I didn't think he had a big pocket pair himself as he had not reraised me before the flop. I also didn't think he flopped a set or 2 pair (had seen him slow play earlier with a set ... just calling big bets until the river) so I put him on either top pair or a flush draw and went all in with my overpair and he called with an A4 but didn't make his flush (or hit an ace) so away he went (broke I might add hehe).
So you really need to pay attention to who is in the pot with you and how they've played their hands. In the example I just gave I had seen this guy limp in w/ A-x suited a couple of times (even from early position). He had lost 2 pots previously because he had top pair (aces)but his kickers were getting him beat. When you constantly have players going into pots w/ A-x suited (or any suited hand really) and not paying attention to position or the fact that they're 8:1 against flopping a flush draw to begin with then you really need to take advantage of this information and force them to make as many mistakes as possible.
Posted Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:18 pm GMT by suitedaces84
It's not about protecting against the flush. It's about insuring that you get paid in full when they don't hit.
Posted Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:23 am GMT by tame_deuces
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | It's not about protecting against the flush. It's about insuring that you get paid in full when they don't hit. |
Damn well put! 
Posted Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:24 pm GMT by golddog
Right; so, the 36% or so of the times that they do hit, the question is, how can you out-profit them on the 64% of the times they don't?
Obviously, part of that is recognizing their flush and bailing out of your two pair when appropriate.
With any luck, in your example, they have also hit a pair with the off-suited card, and will chase. As Dave often says, "embrace the chase".
Check-call then check-raise isn't a horrible play. I like to wait until after the turn in limit, just hoping that I can extract an extra big bet from them (as opposed to tipping them off on the small bet post flop).
Depends on the opponent, of course. I'll let a chaser do some betting for me, but not all the time.
Posted Wed Apr 27, 2005 3:47 pm GMT by p3nguin
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | It's not about protecting against the flush. It's about insuring that you get paid in full when they don't hit. |
Can you do this in a limit game?
Posted Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:57 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| p3nguin wrote: | | suitedaces84 wrote: | | It's not about protecting against the flush. It's about insuring that you get paid in full when they don't hit. |
Can you do this in a limit game? |
Only with help from another player. Your best bet is to look to check-raise and get more than one bet per round in play. But limit is much more of a drawing game. It's rare for someone to be incorrect to call with a flush draw. If you have AK the flop is Axx (two spades), your oppoent has two spades in his hand, then you have implied odds working agaisnt you. It will be very difficult for you to fold your losing hand, it will be easy for your oppoent to fold their losing hand. If your oppoent has a draw you can be almost certain that you will be outplayed on the river (pay out when your oppoent hits, not get paid when he misses). There is no magic secret to make them fold when they should call or get all their money when they miss (neither one of these are possible). If you don't get any help you'll be able to get 2BB 65% of the time and lose 3BB 35% of the time. You'll come out a little bit ahead of your oppoent. This, of course, counts only you two. There should be some change (from players that folded or are calling with weaker hands) in the pot. That padding will make it a profitable situation for both you and the flush drawer.
The one thing you may consider here to get an extra bet is check the river from EP even if the third suit doesn't hit. This will often draw a bluff out of your oppoent. Keep in mind if you bet the river and they fold your bet on the river gained you nothing. The downside is they may be calling you down with mid-pair, or top pair worse kicker, they'll check the river too, and you'll lose a bet. There are only two reasons to bet the river. One is to get called by a worse hand, the other is to get a better hand to fold. In this case there is no way you'll get him to fold a better hand. The question is how often can you get him to call with a worse hand. Oppoents will call you on the flop, and turn knowing they're behind, but still have a draw. They're not going to call you on the river with a busted draw. The river play depends a lot on the player. Basic forumla: passive oppoent = bet, aggressive oppoent = check.
To answer your question: no. Of course, you're not going to payout bigtime when he hits, so it's a fair trade.
Posted Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:16 pm GMT by p3nguin
So basically your advice for a limit game is that you don't need to protect yourself because they will only hit 35% of the time anyway and they can't do any real damage to you?
Posted Wed Apr 27, 2005 5:30 pm GMT by suitedaces84
It's impossible to "protect" yourself. All you can do is bet/raise. There are some tricks to minimize the damage and maximize profit--that's it. It's not that you don't have to worry about it because they don't happen often, it's just that there's nothing you can do about it.
Posted Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:29 am GMT by snoogins47
| p3nguin wrote: | | So basically your advice for a limit game is that you don't need to protect yourself because they will only hit 35% of the time anyway and they can't do any real damage to you? |
Often in limit pots, if they're multiway, putting money into the pot and raising is actually helping the flush draws, not hurting. That shouldn't stop you from raising though.
"Protecting yourself from flush draws" is a silly notion. If you bet and they incorrectly call you, regardless of what hand they have, you gain. If you bet and they incorrectly fold, you also gain. If you bet and they're not making a mistake by calling, your bet still might have a positive expectation, and might be your best bet. If by protecting yourself you mean "not lose to people who are drawing to flushes," your only option is to fold.
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