The shortcomings of limit holdem |
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Posted Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:15 pm GMT by PokerGoblin
Hello Poker heathens
Ranting is therapeutic, isn't it?
First off, as you may know by reading some of my other posts, I consider myself to be somewhat of a poker purist, and being able to bet everything I have at any time is a fundamental part of what poker is about. Fixed limits deter about 75% of most poker strategies.
That said I buy in for $50 playing $1-$2. Six players in total. One player to my right caught some cards early and doubled up within 10 hands, luckily not at my expense. He then basically would bet on any draw imaginable. The problem was, with a three raise max per betting round, it was damn near impossible to bluff him out, even knowing he was calling to unlikely draws.
It presented 2 big problems through the course of the night. The first one, with fixed limits it's impossible to put out feeler bets, and second, you cannot bet strongly to weed out the limpers. The only thing you can do is reraise, but only if you are raised.
I was burned early in the night in the sense that it cost me maximum money on a hand where I drew KK. After the flop a series of raises and reraises weeded it down to myself and the player one seat to my left, an aggressive player. The turn gives me a full house, Kings full of sixes. The dilemma: do I put out a $2 bet in early position and see if he calls or do I check to him and risk giving him a free card. I chose to bet, and he quickly folded.
What do you think I should have done? (A smaller, feeler bet of maybe $.50 would have given me more info as to how much he liked his hand, but that wasn't an option) Obviously, I wanted him to call. And being the most aggressive player thoughout the night I figured he would pay to see the river card. I figured him to have a low pair in the hole, 4's or less. I guess with that many overcards on the board he decided to abandon ship, which was obviously a good laydown.
In hindsight the correct play was probably to check after the turn, and let him bet into me or check to a free card, since I had him drawing dead anyhow. It would probably have looked like an obvious trap, though, since I had bet and raised many times in the two previous betting rounds. Maybe he might have hit his card on the river and bet into me w/ my kings full. Oh well live and learn I suppose.
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The other hand, I'm on the small blind with 5-6 spades. So I limp in, and the flop comes 3,4,7 rainbow. So I bet heavily, weeding it down to myself and the gentleman 2 seats to my right, who was betting to most any draw. So the turn comes a 5. He bets, I raise, he calls. I knew he was betting to draw the card I already had. And there was nothing I could do to get rid of him. And naturally, the river comes a 6 and I'm dicked. I'd have gone all in after the flop or turn just to scare him off but there wasn't anything I could do. He turned over 8-9 offsuit and my nut straight was castrated on that one. After that I started reeling and never really recovered, leaving about 45 minutes later.
I'm done. Lemme know whatcha think.
PG
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Posted Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:25 am GMT by nicthestick
Thats why limit is refered to as "No foldem Holdem" ARGHHHHHHH. I feeel Your Pain.
Posted Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:21 pm GMT by PokerGoblin
sorry my post wasn't interesting enough to generate more replies.
PG
Posted Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:08 pm GMT by JimTheBullet
The poster who called it NoFoldem Holdem was spot on. In limit games, particularly small limit, the amount of calling you see with outrageous draws is, just that, outrageous. The beat you described PG is utterly baffling. Even if your betting on the flop was with a draw, surely the other guy, if he has any sense, should realise that at the very least the turn card gave you a pair? I suppose, to be fair, if he put you on a pair or on higher overcards, then he is drawing to 10 outs but that would have been an extremely optimistic view for him to take. He must have suspected that he was drawing for no more than 4 cards (in fact if he was a good player he would have read that you had the straight and therefore had at least one of his outs in your hand).
In limit holdem you get a lot of optimistic calls purely because you don't have the ammunition to take away pot odds. If there was a lot of action pre flop and on the flop you could have, say, 12 small bets in the pot by the turn. This means if you are heads up by this stage your bet will always offer 7 - 1 pot odds which is enough for pretty much every reasonable drawing hand. In this way, it is hard to make a bluff work and, conversely, you can't always jam the pot when you have the nuts.
I agree with the very first poster on this thread who said that many plays are taken out of the game in limit poker.
Posted Fri Dec 19, 2003 1:46 pm GMT by PokerGoblin
I flopped the nut straight. There was no action before the flop, I limped in on the small blind, had anyone raised, I'd have folded the 6-7 offsuit. The flop came 8-5-4 rainbow. He called with the top pair and an inside straight draw, cause he had 8-9 off and the turn came with a 7 and the river matched my 6.
The bad thing about low limit fixed games is for the most part you have to pretty much have the best cards to win a pot, weeding out the limpers makes the odds better but it still takes a lot of the strategy away.
PG
Posted Fri Dec 19, 2003 4:27 pm GMT by nicthestick
In "Super System", Bobby Baldwin says that while playing limit holdem, you are going to have to show down the best hand to win in a large percentage of pots. In No limit that is not the case. I'm assuming that you would have moved in and shut the guy out in a no limit game. connectors lose some of there value in a limit game, and you have to adjust accordingly. When I sit limit, I will only play Big cards, Pairs, or connectors in position. I really prefer no limit to limit, but it is hard to find a live no limit game around here.  Adjust your style, and you will be fine.
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