Posted Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:40 am GMT by kingpin707
alright people, i've got a question.
now, i've tried playing tight. i'm talking about the usually recommending starting hands. AA,KK,QQ,JJ,1010,AKs, yada yada etc, you know the list. for the most part, it works well, and i play real aggresive when i do play those. i also play some other ands like pocket pairs if it's cheap, and i play them real good especially when i flop a set. now, the part that i need help is, is that , when i play that tight, i toss out garbage hands of course. the thing is, i get more garbage hands than good hands, which is common. i do have patience to wait, but bottom line is , i'm getting killed by the blinds. and when i do go in sometimes, i'll raise strong pre flop, and everyone just calls. and when i miss, it sucks. sometimes i'll hit top pair, and raise big, and people well call to the end, and hit two pair, or a flush with garbage hands like j3o or some sort.
some one please hep me plug my leak. much would be appreciated. and by the way, i there are times when i cna find a group of beginners beginners, and i guess they don't have the know how to fold when i raise big sometimes. thanks.
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Posted Sat Jan 01, 2005 8:45 pm GMT by williamhopper
It sounds to me like you are playing limit, right? I used to have the same problem, which is why I hate limit, but there were two things I did to "solve it."
(1) I decided I liked no limit way better because of your aforementioned problems. People don't stay in with J3o when you are playing for cash and you raise 5X the BB. And if they do, you will easily cash in on them in the long run.
(2) If you insist on playing limit, why not play the crap hands sometimes? Your opponents are, and if they're beating you this way, then who's to say you won't beat them with a taste of their own medicine? If you are too strict with your starting hands, players will pick up on that and steal your money when rags fall. Mix it up more.
Hope this helps.
Will
Posted Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:36 am GMT by WiReD
I have the EXACT same problem.
some advice ppl?
Posted Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:04 am GMT by ilikepoker
if you're playing micro limits, I can't help you. I know there's some strategy to them but seems like a lot of gamble to me. But if you are into some at least low limit games like 2/4 minimum you will see people playing a bit tighter and they will respect your preflop raise from an early position a little more. If they aren't - try another table. Also where you find a tighter table, you will also find that there is more oportunities to play position (ie, most have folded by the time it gets to you on the button). that is a good time to play those mediocre or occasionally even crap hands. my suggestion is, if the table you play at allows it, try to play around with position a little and represent hands you dont have or bet on draws. it may take firing a couple shots after the flop and the turn sometimes even the river. the thing to watch out for is if you gt cought people might try to trap you while you are doing this. some might even try to bluff you on the river without even a hand believing that you will fold. if you can read the players at the table well enough you might even try that if you are feeling daring. but my hunch is, based on your description of people calling the preflop raises with garbage, is maybe the games you are playing are too loose for your style. maybe try a higher limit or a different site. what limit are you playing? lastly, if the same people are winning all the time, watch them to see what they are doing. they will certainly have better strageties for your specific tables than i would. i think every limit at every site is just a bit different. ....just my 2 cents hope it helped
Posted Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:06 am GMT by ilikepoker
| williamhopper wrote: | | It sounds to me like you are playing limit, right? |
I made the same assumption, but then I just realized it was posted in:
TexasHoldem-Poker.com Forum Index -> No Limit Games
so instead of deleting the post - this ammendment: you can probably ignore everything i just said. good luck
Posted Sun Jan 09, 2005 3:01 pm GMT by Grim
I used to be the same way until i started realizing the amount of straights I threw away. While you won't always win, you will win some nice pots...especially if your buds are expeting you not to have anything but premiums when the A,2,5 is the flop and you hold the straight.
A2
23
34
56
67
89
910
J10
those sets suited are well worth playing late position in the blinds...so you can probably play for just the blind. In other words, don't play 'em if you think you're gonna get raised. I would probably play 89 and up unsuited. You will be suprised what you come up with.
I think you should ALWAYS play pocket pair if the cost is just the big blind or possibly a slight raise(depending on the amount of players, don't play 5's with 10 people, you're fives are probably in the fold stack...etc...)
The thing to remember is to learn position when playing connectors and low pocket pair...you should come up with some good stuff. Good luck.
Posted Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:31 pm GMT by KINGJACK
| Grim wrote: | I used to be the same way until i started realizing the amount of straights I threw away. While you won't always win, you will win some nice pots...especially if your buds are expeting you not to have anything but premiums when the A,2,5 is the flop and you hold the straight.
A2
23
34
56
67
89
910
J10
those sets suited are well worth playing late position in the blinds...so you can probably play for just the blind. In other words, don't play 'em if you think you're gonna get raised. I would probably play 89 and up unsuited. You will be suprised what you come up with.
I think you should ALWAYS play pocket pair if the cost is just the big blind or possibly a slight raise(depending on the amount of players, don't play 5's with 10 people, you're fives are probably in the fold stack...etc...)
The thing to remember is to learn position when playing connectors and low pocket pair...you should come up with some good stuff. Good luck. |
True...
Of course you have to hit the flop hard to see the turn with theese kind of hand. With these you'll loose small and win big.
I would Also add AX suited in late position for 2 bets.
Also note thet suited connectors and AX worth a limp in even in early position in very loose game. Some game are so loose and so passive that you know you'll have at least 5 callers and no raiser. (or maybe 1 raiser, but it worths the call any way with those kind of hands cause you'll have the bet odds to do it)
Dont get me wrong, you can play those hands sometime, not always. As Grim says late positions and blinds are good places to do it. If you have 5-6 callers and you are on the button or big blind, hands like A-8suited or 8-9suited sometime worth a raise. And that way you are sure to have your pot odds to see the turn if you flop your draw.
Any way...
I think it can help you to plug your leak.
Going up in stakes could also avoid a couple of bad beats.
Posted Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:01 pm GMT by Ensano
ok.. i don't know if this is really going to help you plug any leaks specifically.. but there's a lot more power in suited connectors than people think.. especially in no limit.. rags fall on the flop just as much at high cards.. don't get me wrong.. trash hands are trash hands... but say you play 4-5 suited in late position for a raise 3x BB.. now everyone credits you for a decent hand.. especially cause you're normally a solid player.. you get two callers.. and the flop comes 4-4-A.. well no one will think you'd raise with a 4 (you did raise after all didn't you).. you bet.. they think you maybe got two pair.. now someone has that ace.. (they followed a raise didn't they).. so they raise you.. you reraise them all in.. you reraise them all in.. and bam you show trips.. you just won a monster pot.. that'll pay for all the times you miss.. what if you miss.. well if you don't have any part of it (no bottom pair.. no straight/flush draw) because you raised people put you on a good hand.. say the flop is 6-9-K.. you bet.. well you must have top pair.. (you raised didn't you) and they all fold.. you'd be suprised how many times you'll pick up a pot like this.. of corse if you're bluffing and somone puts a move on you you can tell if they've got that King.. if you feel they do.. fold.. no harm no fuss
Posted Mon Feb 14, 2005 9:12 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Posted Thu Mar 10, 2005 12:38 am GMT by Cjwr42
i have been having a lot of the same problems. people like us, we are committed to getting better at poker, we read books, think about poker all the time, and get into discussions about the game...but a lot of the friends with whom we play our home games arent really committed to getting good...and a lot of them dont even know what getting good means. they think that playing once a week will make them better. bad beats, lucky draws, terrible calls--these are all products of playing with bad players. my advice is to be more selective in terms of whom you play against. like doyle says, the rookies dont understand what different moves mean. so when you raise big, it doesnt make an impression.
Posted Sat May 14, 2005 12:27 pm GMT by DarkKnight
that's the exact problem i'm having with my friends.
I got them into hold'em, and we decided to have poker nights. We were supposed to have one today, and yesterday i found out they want to have a buy-in for the "tournament" (10$ , which for us is a pretty huge amount). I am totally against that purely because they're noobs and they don't know about draws, odds, etc.
That's why i might give up something i would've liked (poker night), as i'm not willing to risk it.
Posted Sat May 14, 2005 1:24 pm GMT by snoogins47
This thread gives me a searing pain in my head, stomach, and left testicle.
Posted Sat May 14, 2005 2:23 pm GMT by age_of_sages
LOL Snoogins, I'm in agreement. When the most common advice given is "go play higher stakes against better players" the thread is quite detrimental to anyone reading it.
Posted Sun May 29, 2005 3:18 pm GMT by Jackal
we must be talking about play money games here. If you establish the proper table image even at .50/$1 when you raise people will fold unless they have a great hand.
In fact, most of the posts in this thread sound like people who have never played for real money.
Posted Sun May 29, 2005 3:36 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Jackal wrote: | | If you establish the proper table image even at .50/$1 when you raise people will fold unless they have a great hand. |
Really?!
Posted Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:21 am GMT by Ensano
I'll have you know that I do play for real money... and not the kinda that just keeps making deposits... I may not play high stakes but I've been building up my bankroll for some time now...
Posted Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:14 pm GMT by Hurricane Ham
Well I know I want to establish a good table image so that when I raise with pocket aces, I can pick up those blinds! Screw the "stoopid noobs omg" calling with a K4, I don't want them in the hand with me, because they just ALWAYS crack my aces. I'd like everyone to lay down to my raises and not chase anything...ever. Because if they don't chase, then they never hit that gutshot on the river, and my big pair can hold up more than 8 times out of 10.
There's no one piece of advice anyone can really give to avoid the morons playing garbage, except that you want them at your table. To say "play more of X hands, raise with X hands" is all well and good, but it just comes down to you making the right decisions as much as you can.
Just trying to add a little bit of sense to this thread that is becoming detrimental to my mental health...
Posted Fri Jun 10, 2005 5:10 pm GMT by Skribbles
Geez.... there is some gawd awful advice in this thread....
Posted Fri Jun 10, 2005 7:50 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Skribbles wrote: | | Geez.... there is some gawd awful advice in this thread.... |
Agreed. It's an embarresment (sp?) to the forum.
Posted Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:07 pm GMT by Hestor
Soo.......instead of bashing the bad advice why don't you correct it? Or did you deem in your infinite wisdom to hold your perfumed hankerchief to your nose and stand aback in utter disdain rather than be so soiled.
Agreed, the "play at a different limit" advice is particularly bad because if you can't win poker in the micro limit jungle, you shouldn't be playing poker.
But anyway, it sounds like these folks want some honest advice and are struggling with the dynamic of these tables. Play money, micro-limit, you name it, it's all still poker and that's what these forums are about aren't they?
I'm still somewhat of a noob myself but I do have this to offer since I have been playing both low/micro limit and play money a LOT recently (successfully). At these levels you have everybody in the pot and all sorts of craziness happening so you need to take into account a few things. Basically these are still the basic concepts of poker, but this is how I adapt them to the craziness of play money or micro-limit.
1) Post flop play is by far the most important skill to learn with these tables. People do not often listen to a pre-flop raise and so when that thing hits the table and you've missed with your overcards (so sad - bye bye AK) ...tread carefully or just flat out fold to any bet because it is almost gauranteed you are already far behind.
2) Broaden your hand range. But in the same breath you have got to be prepared to lay your hands down without much of a qualm when the betting starts getting crazy and you have a weak hand. The frustration that by-the-book poker players have with these limits is that people do not listen to "reason". They call your raises with little to nothing, they raise you with little to nothing, etc. But instead of getting frusterated with this just be patient and use it to your advantage. Make them pay to chase and let the maniac pay into you. If they hit their chase card or hit the nuts with their crazy hand...more power to them, you'll have their money in the long run. I find that I play (within reason and depending on the betting) most suited cards (Ace suited most definately), suited connectors in almost any position, pocket pairs in any position (not raising unless perhaps with KK/AA, just praying for trips). With these I'm praying for the big hands (see below) but I often just toss them at the flop when it's not close. The looser playing also allows you to be "one of them" so that when your big hands do come (especially if you've been caught even once while bluffing) they pay off. The hands that are successfull are those that can have a lot happen with them (suited connectors) or are sneaky (pocket pairs). OF COURSE the premium hands are great, but you are playing a losing game if they are all you play because those come rarely and you will often have to fold them when you don't hit the flop very hard AND people get nervous when the high cards hit the board so they don't pay out as much.
3) It is a game of great patience. High pair and even two pair become less valuable hands and must be played very carefully unless they develop into a much stronger hand. In "proper" hold'em (because everyone has already folded and it's down to two or three callers), top pair, top kicker is more than sufficient to take down many if not most pots. In the lower limits, trips and up are your moneymakers. BECAUSE no-one is really listening to reason you can usually make them pay and pay when you hit your big hands. The sneaky ones are the best (like trips or a boat off of a pocket pair) or connectors. I find with the big hands that it is good to bet an appealing amount to keep as many as possible in the pot rather than just trying to take one suckers stack. You do risk suckout so play it according to flop texture, the table etc.
4) If you're playing NL, the size of your pre-flop raises must be much bigger than the 'recommended' to get people to fold. Even then they may not work or might backfire, depending on the table (especially in play money).
5) Position (as always) is important. I will rarely raise and only carefully call from under the gun in early position. What often results in is an escalated situation when someone else decides to raise and suddenly you have people all in (or the betting capped in limit). I prefer to see the flop in most cases as cheaply as possible and take it from there. So my preferred position is actually in the blinds or (of course) on the button. My play may be a bit too passive because I'm not prepping the pot when I get my premium hands, but one of the whole points of the pre-flop raise is to narrow the field so you don't get anyone catching something crazy on the flop. Since these people rarely fold pre-flop it seems like an excercise in futility.
6) Know your style and find the right table to match your style. I love a table full of calling stations and/or fairly passive players. I tend to bluff a bit so this cramps my style because I can only get caught bluffing at these kinds of tables (it does make them call more though, so it all works out), but it is the table I feel most comfortable in. I can see flops for cheap and then have people calling me down when I do hit my hands.
7) Be prepared to lose a lot of pots to suckout. It happens, it sucks, but part of mastering these tables is learning how to controll your stack so you don't go broke on hands that you thought were in the bag.
Again, those are just basic poker concepts, but are my adaptation at this level of poker.
Posted Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:51 pm GMT by DougisRad
| Hestor wrote: | Soo.......instead of bashing the bad advice why don't you correct it? Or did you deem in your infinite wisdom to hold your perfumed hankerchief to your nose and stand aback in utter disdain rather than be so soiled.
Agreed, the "play at a different limit" advice is particularly bad because if you can't win poker in the micro limit jungle, you shouldn't be playing poker.
But anyway, it sounds like these folks want some honest advice and are struggling with the dynamic of these tables. Play money, micro-limit, you name it, it's all still poker and that's what these forums are about aren't they?
I'm still somewhat of a noob myself but I do have this to offer since I have been playing both low/micro limit and play money a LOT recently (successfully). At these levels you have everybody in the pot and all sorts of craziness happening so you need to take into account a few things. Basically these are still the basic concepts of poker, but this is how I adapt them to the craziness of play money or micro-limit.
1) Post flop play is by far the most important skill to learn with these tables. People do not often listen to a pre-flop raise and so when that thing hits the table and you've missed with your overcards (so sad - bye bye AK) ...tread carefully or just flat out fold to any bet because it is almost gauranteed you are already far behind.
2) Broaden your hand range. But in the same breath you have got to be prepared to lay your hands down without much of a qualm when the betting starts getting crazy and you have a weak hand. The frustration that by-the-book poker players have with these limits is that people do not listen to "reason". They call your raises with little to nothing, they raise you with little to nothing, etc. But instead of getting frusterated with this just be patient and use it to your advantage. Make them pay to chase and let the maniac pay into you. If they hit their chase card or hit the nuts with their crazy hand...more power to them, you'll have their money in the long run. I find that I play (within reason and depending on the betting) most suited cards (Ace suited most definately), suited connectors in almost any position, pocket pairs in any position (not raising unless perhaps with KK/AA, just praying for trips). With these I'm praying for the big hands (see below) but I often just toss them at the flop when it's not close. The looser playing also allows you to be "one of them" so that when your big hands do come (especially if you've been caught even once while bluffing) they pay off. The hands that are successfull are those that can have a lot happen with them (suited connectors) or are sneaky (pocket pairs). OF COURSE the premium hands are great, but you are playing a losing game if they are all you play because those come rarely and you will often have to fold them when you don't hit the flop very hard AND people get nervous when the high cards hit the board so they don't pay out as much.
3) It is a game of great patience. High pair and even two pair become less valuable hands and must be played very carefully unless they develop into a much stronger hand. In "proper" hold'em (because everyone has already folded and it's down to two or three callers), top pair, top kicker is more than sufficient to take down many if not most pots. In the lower limits, trips and up are your moneymakers. BECAUSE no-one is really listening to reason you can usually make them pay and pay when you hit your big hands. The sneaky ones are the best (like trips or a boat off of a pocket pair) or connectors. I find with the big hands that it is good to bet an appealing amount to keep as many as possible in the pot rather than just trying to take one suckers stack. You do risk suckout so play it according to flop texture, the table etc.
4) If you're playing NL, the size of your pre-flop raises must be much bigger than the 'recommended' to get people to fold. Even then they may not work or might backfire, depending on the table (especially in play money).
5) Position (as always) is important. I will rarely raise and only carefully call from under the gun in early position. What often results in is an escalated situation when someone else decides to raise and suddenly you have people all in (or the betting capped in limit). I prefer to see the flop in most cases as cheaply as possible and take it from there. So my preferred position is actually in the blinds or (of course) on the button. My play may be a bit too passive because I'm not prepping the pot when I get my premium hands, but one of the whole points of the pre-flop raise is to narrow the field so you don't get anyone catching something crazy on the flop. Since these people rarely fold pre-flop it seems like an excercise in futility.
6) Know your style and find the right table to match your style. I love a table full of calling stations and/or fairly passive players. I tend to bluff a bit so this cramps my style because I can only get caught bluffing at these kinds of tables (it does make them call more though, so it all works out), but it is the table I feel most comfortable in. I can see flops for cheap and then have people calling me down when I do hit my hands.
7) Be prepared to lose a lot of pots to suckout. It happens, it sucks, but part of mastering these tables is learning how to controll your stack so you don't go broke on hands that you thought were in the bag.
Again, those are just basic poker concepts, but are my adaptation at this level of poker. |
You realize the last post before yours is from June? Regardless: good advice in a halfshell. Turtle power.
Posted Tue Oct 04, 2005 5:59 pm GMT by Hestor
Well...these forums don't exactly move at lightning speed. I read this thread a bit back, then read it again for some reason (it showed up as unread I guess) and got annoyed again at the annoyed people  So I figured I had to say something. It's all poker and every level and every table requires a different approach.
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