Posted Tue Jan 11, 2005 4:34 am GMT by Verdi
Do you guys ever play Omaha?
I prefer the simplest form of Omaha. Not that high/low stuff. That's too complicated for my brain. 
I find it more demanding as well as easier to win. Players get carried away too much when they see that they have what would have been a great hand in Texas Hold'Em.
I once saw somewhere that "Omaha is a game of nuts". As long as I remember that I do alright. Nut flush is nothing if the board has a pair. And so forth...
So what do you think about Omaha and the potential money to be won over there?
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Posted Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:51 am GMT by Dave B
I like it. I need to get better at it because I believe it can be a real cash cow. I do like hi/lo, but str8 up is good too. I havent tried PL yet, except for SNGs.
Posted Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:20 am GMT by Verdi
I've tried high/low but I can't value my starting hands. A AAKK hand would be worse than a AK23 or something... Right? The objective is to scoop the pot, not to win half of it.
I guess I need to read a few books on the subject. It's always hard to learn new strategies when you're so used to regular hold em.
Yesterday I played a $5 S&G just for fun. It was no limit Omaha. On like the third hand four people went all in. After the flop... People thought they had great hands... In the end I managed to come 3:d after winning some all ins. Called an all in with 10 10 9 J. I think that was a pretty decent hand and I was short stacked. I had the possibility of hitting a full house, trips, straight and a relatively high flush (think two of them were the same suit). I did hit a straight with this hand. I also called an all in with Ah2hAsKs. That was also a nice hand I believe. Two nut flush possibilities, the aces, and maybe even a straight, ace high or a wheel... This didn't improve though and when the board showed a pair of 7s I thought I was dead... But I was not. I don't understand much about Omaha but the little I know is that it's important to have many different possibilities of making a good hand. AA94 rainbow wouldn't be so hot, even if it have the aces.
Anyway, to end my rant, when I came back to a Hold Em S&G I thought that it was kind of boring. There was less imagination involved. Either you have somehting or you don't. In Omaha there are so many possibilities. You just need to beware of possible better hands. If you have a straight, can someone have a higher straight? If you have a flush, can someone have a higher, if you have a boat... etc etc...
Posted Tue Jan 11, 2005 9:46 am GMT by Nut Flush
| Quote: | I don't understand much about Omaha but the little I know is that it's important to have many different possibilities of making a good hand. AA94 rainbow wouldn't be so hot, even if it have the aces.
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I rarely play Hold em online anymore, with the exception of the occasional MTT. That said, here's my take on Omaha.
1)You want to play hands that have a very good chance to improve when they hit. Example, if you have a 45TJ and the flop is 789, there is a good chance you won't win. Even though you have the current nuts, you could be up against a much more powerful hand such as TJQK or TJ99. I'm not saying don't bet big on that flop, just be aware that in Omaha, there is a greater chance you'll get busted on the turn or river than in Hold Em. If someone plays back at you, time to slow down. Occasionally you'll see a fish betting at you with an inferior hand like T654, but not often.
2) Pocket Aces are still very playable, just don't get married to them. With Aces, I'll bet as much as I can(I usually play PL) to drive away those draws, which doesn't happen often. If the board is crap, like 27Q, I'll bet the pot again on the flop. You should really only be worried of a set on that flop, if anybody caught two pair with that flop, put them on your buddy list :D And you're right AA94 isn't so hot, but it is playable. Obviously you'd rather have AAKQ double suited but still play AA94.
3) An open ended straight draw in Omaha is not near as powerful as in Hold em. Like I said in point #1, you could be in rough shape against somebody with a better draw. For example, you have 3467 rainbow and the flop comes J58. Do you really want to see a 9 come on the turn? I wouldn't, somebody will have a QT. So your only real out is a 4 and you're already holding one.
4) Don't chase your straights and flushes with a pair on the board!
5) Bottom set is a crap hand. Short handed is one thing, but at a full table where hardly anybody folds before the flop chances are you're probably gonna get beat. I've lost lots of pots staying married to bottom or even middle set. I've learned though, most times I won't even play low-mid pairs in Omaha unless I have position and the table folds around to me. That doesn't happen often.
6) Check out the other players. Be very careful with the people sitting on $200 at a $50 buy in table. Those are usually the ones that play alot. Look and see who is playing multiple tables, chances are those are the people there making money.
7) Patience! I'd say that's the second most important thing in Omaha(next to position). I either play 3 tables at once or 2 tables and some kind of MTT or SNG on a third. It can get even more boring waiting for good starting hands in Omaha than in hold em.
8) Even though Omaha is a game of the nuts, occasionally you can take down the pot with second nuts. You just have to pay attention, watch what people play and remember what they raise with preflop. Alot of people will raise with any suited Ace, if there was alot of pre-flop action, you can almost be positive your King high flush is no good. But in a pot where there were no raises pre-flop and very little action on the flop, your K high flush may be the best hand. If someone does have the Ace, youll find out pretty quick and can ditch your hand.
9) Other garbage hands to mention. If you get dealt trips, quads, or 4 of the same suit, it's hardly worth playing. Obviously, if you get dealt AAAK, you may want to stay in if it's cheap but just be aware you have little chance to improve. With 4 of the same suit, you're holding two of your outs. Even if you get 2 more on the flop, you're probably in rough shape.
10) Most people think since you get 4 cards, you only have 4 possible card combinations but you really have 6. Lets label them ABCD. The possible combinations are: AB,AC,AD,BC,BD,CD. When I first started playing, I'd count my card combinations and only play hands that had a possibility of 4 or greater. For example 459T rainbow is a crap hand. A=4 B=5 C=9 D=T, we can se that we really only have 2 starting combos, AB and CD. Yet I see people playing these hands and getting slaughtered all the time. :D On the other hand we have AcKsTsJc which is HUGE starting hand, you've got 6 possiblilites here. AK,AT,AJ,KT,KJ,JT can all make the nut straight plus you've got big cards with 2 flush possibilities.
That's pretty much it for my basic strategy. I just sit and wait for great starting hands. I still make mistakes but I'm doing alot better than I was a month ago. I haven't read any books on Omaha but there is a ton of info if you do a little searching in Google.
Posted Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:18 am GMT by Dave B
Hi/Lo, best starting hand is AA23 double suited.
Any A2 or suited A is strong. Remember 8 or better, so flop all face cards, the dopes raising w/ A2 are sunk unless they can make a hi hand. Expect to have multiple nut lows-expect anything else and you are going to regret it (every here "If I win any more pots I will go broke", 3 way action w/ the low pot split).
If you miss a draw, but have a low hand, call a river heads up, he may not have a qualifier and if you can take 1/2 pot, one more call is often worth it. Lots of people will chase a low, even for runner runner-so raise the heck out of them until a low hits. Even if they do, it may be counterfieted.
I am a total amatuer, so I am just adding some stuff to nut flush's detail.
One Omaha question I have, lets say I have QQJ10 and the flop is Q45 w/ 2 suited(I have no flush draw). Do I raise the heck out of it w/ the current nuts or do I wait to see if a str8, flush or low hits and if it doesnt bet then. My holdem aggressiveness tells me to always bet the heck out of the nuts-especially at a table where people will call, but I may be betting when I am not even better than a 30-40% favorite.
Posted Tue Jan 11, 2005 11:25 am GMT by Nut Flush
| Quote: | | Do I raise the heck out of it w/ the current nuts or do I wait to see if a str8, flush or low hits and if it doesnt bet then. |
I'll either bet or check raise from EP and raise it in LP. Giving away free cards in Omaha can be a disaster.
That's just a bad flop for your set, a lo can take half, a wheel or higher straight can beat your hi as well as a flush. That's the main reason I stay away from PLO8 and just stick to straight PLO. QQJT is much better if you don't have to worry about the lo draw.
Posted Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:29 pm GMT by snoogins47
There's absolutely no reason to push that hard with a vulnerable one way hand on a board that can easily go both ways.
You're playing for half the pot. You make money by a)making everybody fold, or b)getting many people to put money in the pot.
it amazes me how many people will limp with say, Ac 2c Js 9d, the board comes 3d 4h Kh, seven people in the pot, they call a tiny bet getting 20 to 1, and seven take the turn... then the Qh hits the turn, and they instantly try to get all their money in the pot.
There are, of course, times when you want to push people out. Times you might want to narrow the field. Yadda yadda. But with the one way nuts and no appreciable chance at the other way, you're gaining 50% of the money that goes into the pot (less since people can outdraw you for that side of the pot too.)
So, you want a lot of callers, or you want zero.
It's mind blowing how often you can quarter somebody because they have the one way nuts and decide to bet the pot.
Anyway, the best advice I can give you is to slow down and try to think through each decision logically before you make it. It's important in any game, but you will get eaten alive if you don't do it in Omaha.
Posted Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:16 am GMT by Nut Flush
| Quote: | | There's absolutely no reason to push that hard with a vulnerable one way hand on a board that can easily go both ways. |
That's just my style I guess. I like to find out where I stand while the pot is still relatively small. If I get played back at, I can probably assume someone has A2 and the Ace high flush draw, but if I don't bet or raise, I'll never know. If one of the 24 scare cards(I didn't count them before, that's alot of scare cards) come out on the turn, it's an easy laydown here.
But, every other card in the deck that's not a scare card will improve your hand somewhat. The last Q for quads. Three 4s, three 5s for a full house. A King or nine will give you a straightdraw. Even an 8 or Ace which completes the lo gives you a gutshot draw here. I'd rather not see an 8 or Ace though, I'd have a hard time calling a pot sized bet there. The Jack or Ten really doesn't improve your hand, but it's also not helping your opponents either.
I guess what I'm getting at here is right now trip Queens is the best hand. There are 24 cards I don't want to see, but out of the remaining 23, most of them will improve my hand. If I don't bet or raise the flop and one of my cards hits the turn, how much action do I expect to get? If I had bet the pot preflop, and lead off with a "teaser" bet for the lo draws, or even try a check raise here, could I not make a nice profit?
I guess I'm just asking if it's worth it to build the pot preflop and hope to get a few people calling with the lo draw. A small $2 investment here(I'll assume blinds of .5/1) can turn into a nice profit. While at the same time, a $2 loss if I have to fold the turn is trivial.
EDIT: granted I'd need two or three callers to make it profitable, if I only got one caller on that flop, it would hardly be worth it. Also forgive me if my card counts are off, I haven't had my coffee yet 
Posted Wed Jan 12, 2005 11:11 am GMT by ZIPPY
If you are an omaha beginner, don't forget... always and only 2 cards from your 4 in the hole and 3 cards from the board make up a hand!!!
The first time I played, I went from a straight flush in my muddled and texas holdem mind to a pair in stark omaha reality.
Talk about learning curve!
Posted Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:56 pm GMT by QuietOne
Love the game, and I really like playing Hi/Low on line but I never play it in a real game. Too much thinking. Me and my friends, in our weekly game drink quite a bit while we play so no one wants to figure it all out.
I wouldn't mind trying a good live tourney for a decent amount of money.
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