I don't get group buys - help me understand |
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Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:32 pm GMT by BuyPokerChips
I just don't get it. I mean I understand the underlying concept of pooling purchasing power to get a volume discount. That's a straight-forward concept. What I don't get is:
- What the motivation is for the group purchase organizer, and how it is any different than the motivation for your average chip retailer? I know what they buy them for, and I know what they sell them for, so it's essentially just reselling chips at a different margin and with a different level of service.
- Why these posts about group buys allowed, and almost encouraged, while posts from established retailers shunned?
Furthermore, what I would really like to understand better is why people participate in these (if, infact, they even do). I understand it's grounded in enjoying a volume discount - no argument cheaper is better, all things considered. But how much cheaper is it on average? And does this discount justify any tradeoffs group buy praticipants must make?
So let's say you're buying 500 real clay chips in a group buy. Pricing varies, of course, but for example let's use the pricing of this current group buy which would come to a little over $480 for 500 chips, shipped. Now, if we compare this to the average full retail price for a 500-chip set of high-end clay chips shipped (probably about $575), then there is a "Group Buy" savings of $95, or 16.5%. That's the savings. It's almost $100, but of course this is on a somewhat substantial purchase of say $500-$600.
So, my understanding then is that this discount is in exchange for the following trade-offs:
- Paying cash upfront, perhaps a couple months in the case of a customized group buy
- Paying cash (or Paypal) to someone you know primarily by a made up nickname on a anonymous discussion group on the assumption that they will send you something down the road.
- In the event of a customized design - agreeing to buy 500 chips based on a graphic design mock-up that you have little idea of how will look on an actual chip.
- In the event of a customized design - agreeing to a concensus designed chip, or one designed by the group buy organizer, which you have little say over - so essentially it's not really a customized chip, just someone elses design that you get to approve upfront.
- In the event of a customized design - Not having the ability to add to your set or replace lost or damaged chips down the road because it's a one-time event.
- Assuming the risk that the final prices could change and you're already somewhat pot committed as you've already paid the bulk of the purchase price
- Assuming the risk of a fradulent group buy.
- Giving up any degree of customer service in the event that their is a problem with the merchandise and/or the shipment gets lost in transit
- Giving up the ability to return a purchase for a full refund
- Giving up the convenience and security protection provided by paying with a credit card
So to go thru with a group buy (which are not just on poker chip boards, but on any product-specific board on the web), participants are willing to make all of these trade-offs to save 10-20% (roughly 16.5% in this instance). This doesn't compute with me. Seems like I'm giving up a lot for a little. Maybe not. Apparently (If these things actually go thru to fruition), there are many people who are more than willing to make this trade-off. Maybe everything goes well and there are no problems. Maybe it's a complete scam. Who knows.
My primary concern is this seems like too good a con for the average confidence man to pass up. Even if the majority of the people doing this are above board, that existence makes room for the con men of the world to swoop in and make a quick buck.
Let's take TenPercenter's group buy of 100,000 Paulson chips "you read that right, 100,000 chip order", on a different board, for example. Now, no offense TenPercenter, I'm not accusing you in any way of running a scam. Rahter I'm just pointing out that if a confidence man was to run a scam, they could do something very similar to what you've done and perhaps walk away with 2 years salary for the average person on this 100,000 chip group buy alone, not to mention replicating this on every product-specific board on the Internet.
Some out there might be saying, wait, TenPercenter already did at least one group buy (on the Pharoah's Club Chipco) and everyone got their chips just fine. So there's no risk right? He's proved himself trustful. Or you could take the perspective that it was just the first step in a long con, one that could really bilk a bunch of people our of some cash, like a 100,000 chip order. After all, why would he organize a 2nd group buy when he already has his perfect chip set from the first buy. Who needs two different sets of chips?
Disclaimer - Of course, I'm a poker chip retailer, so reading this you might be thinking I'm just trying to cast doubt on the legitimacy of group buys to boost my business. You're going to have to trust me on this one, but that's not really it. What I'm trying to figure out is what the motivations are for joining a group buy. I'm in the business of solving problems for consumers looking for gaming supplies. What I'm trying to figure out is if there is a large customer base out there who by the act of participating in group buys is actually screaming:
"HEY, We're willing to make a lot of concessions for a 10-20% discount - including revoking our rights to return an item or get a refund of any kind, including our ability to pay with a credit card, including paying 2 months in advance, including revoking our claim to any form of customer service, including assuming the risk of a last minute price change after we've already paid 2 months in advance, including assuming the risks and hassles of dealing with UPS on any items lost in transit."
If that is indeed the reality, then poker chip retailers (including my company), need to recognize this consumer need and meet it with a solution. That's why I'm posting.
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:33 pm GMT by yeltzen
I like boobs.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:45 pm GMT by Deakon
You said it yourself.......cheaper is better. The only amount of valid concern you present is the issue of trust, but I am confident that this is not an issue. Let me guess, you are a retailer for BPC. So, what is it, are you angry that people are finding ways to get a better price on the chips or is it that the group buys are for Paulsons, WSOP Custom chips, TR King customs, etc?
Can't wait to see someone post a reply that as as much time on their hands as the poster!
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:55 pm GMT by Nate PT
I didnt real all that but its mainly for pricing, and if there is someone with a good idea for chips (WSOP, Egypitans) why not share it and save some money too??
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:56 pm GMT by BuyPokerChips
Deakon,
The reality is I'd just like to understand the market better. Our company relies on understanding the poker chip marketplace, and we'd like to get a better understanding of the "group buy" customer segment. Fear is not our motivation.
If there is a segment of the market that is expressing a desire to save 10-20% off retail and is willing to make X,Y, and Z concessions, then we want to know about it. As you can imagine, all of these concessions have a cost of doing business, so without providing them with a sale, the price of that average customer goes down.
Lastly, who do you think can get you a better deal on a group buy - some guy named TenPercenter, or an established retailer?
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:03 pm GMT by fcuk
Somebody sounds bitter. Not everybody has a great artistic mind, or do they have a head full of great ideas. Group buys are for people who want to buy some nice looking chips, save some cash (which is usualy more than 16%) and have a set of nice looking chips. You can pay with credit card, dont know where that idea come from. Maybe if you chose a better supplier for your clay chips, I would pick up a set from you, but I just hate those modern clays.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:04 pm GMT by gpc
I am a part of the TR King dual edge spot group buy. The reason I agreed to it was that it cut my cost in half, the chips will not be duplicated and only a handful of people will have the same chips.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:05 pm GMT by Fins
Wow... that's obnoxious.
I'll reread your rant later to see if I have a second impression.
but quickly two things...
(1) COST - Volume savings
16-17%??
Take the Chipco examples 500 on your own to your door = $1.32/chip
Group buy at 75¢/chip delivered is over a 40% savings (Desparados & WSOP)
Group buy at 90¢/chip delivered is over a 30% savings (Egyptians & Suits)
I don't have the exact prices but that's pretty close.
- AND -
(2) COST - No/little retailer markup
I haven't read thru the Paulson group buys yet so I can't comment to those but to lump the others especially the Egyptians in that rant... is ridiculous.
- Fins
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:07 pm GMT by Fins
| BuyPokerChips wrote: | | Lastly, who do you think can get you a better deal on a group buy - some guy named TenPercenter, or an established retailer? |
I've seen your retail prices... I'll take Ten.
- Fins
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:26 pm GMT by Nickmast
Lets see here:
Modern Clays - $369 + shipping for a 300 set
Paulson group buy- (BETTER CHIP)- $214.78 shipped for a 300 set
I wonder which deal is better??
EDIT- I should probably also say that the Paulson price is based on the discount that Nugzy is providing based on the Casino on net sign up.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:27 pm GMT by pie taster
Here are my theories on why they are popular.
1) Internet Economy. The internet is providing consumers with a vast amount of information from which to make purchase decesions. So generally people know what the price of poker chips should be. If people feel they can get a good deal, they are going to do it. People love it when they feel they can purchase something for less than what is should.
2)Ownership. When it comes to customization, espically in a forum, people start sharing ideas and opinions and start getting very interested in the chips that are being designed. Look at the threads for the custom WSOP chips.. it went on FOREVER with people commenting on designs and layouts, to the point that you know had a large number of people with a vested interested in the end product, so of course they are going to want to buy them.
3)All this might be over estimated. You probably know more than anyone else, what is the ratio of straight up chip sales compaired to bulk purchases. You are replying to a forum where people are OBSESSED with chips (and in yeltzen's case.. boobs). This board is probably not a perfect representative of the gaming market. But my guess is that bulk purchases are rather small in comparison to the overal market. And forums like these are good place for that minority to communicate.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:28 pm GMT by yeltzen
You need to understand the poker chip martket to better serve your customers, eh?
Well, here's a start - belittling your market doesn't work.
With this gem of a post, you've all but guaranteed that no one from this board will ever buy anything from your company.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:46 pm GMT by Mr. Meaner
I personally would not participate in a group buy but that is just me. Don't get me wrong, of course I like to save money but I do plenty of research and shopping before hand and then make an educated decision on where I would buy a product. To me price is only one of the factors that I look at when I buy something and it is acctually further down on my list of important items when shopping. The first thing I always look for is a quality product. Second, on my list would be customer service. Last would probably be the price. If I am satisfied I am buying a quality product and will get great customer service from the retailer, price is the last thing I consider. Companies that thrive in business, usually sell quality products have great customer service and sell for a reasonable price. I have learned over the years if you buy the best products in the marketplacey you will normally be happy with your purchase no matter what you paid for it.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:49 pm GMT by Todd the Mc
| BuyPokerChips wrote: |
"HEY, We're willing to make a lot of concessions for a 10-20% discount - including revoking our rights to return an item or get a refund of any kind, including our ability to pay with a credit card, including paying 2 months in advance, including revoking our claim to any form of customer service, including assuming the risk of a last minute price change after we've already paid 2 months in advance, including assuming the risks and hassles of dealing with UPS on any items lost in transit." |
Try this on your website as a research project for customer demand. Post an optional price break of 25% and make special note that says, Paypal or cash only, no returns and dont call for us help. See which one gets the most orders. Sorry thats sounds more sarcastic than it is meant but money talks. The savings have been more like Fins said. I have not been on this forum for long but I have yet to hear of a scammer. *Knock on wood*
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:58 pm GMT by ChkDeezNuts
Hey BPC....let me at least say a little something about your chips..... 
Your Modern Clay's are defective.
The archetype's are expensive.
The prices are extensive.
THE BPC family!!!!
DADADADUM.....DADADADUM.......
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:59 pm GMT by BuyPokerChips
For those of you who have given meaningful input - thanks! Anyone else who has insight, or even supports something someone else already stated, I encourage you to speak-up as well. Believe it or not, I am genuinely trying to take a pulse of this segment of the market (although as one of you pointed out it may be just a vocal minority). Our business is simply about filling a need, and the better we know the needs, the better we do.
To the skeptic(s), I'm not belittleing (sp) anyone here. Relax, Francis! I don't consider spaming boards a marketing strategy - it's obviously a short-sighted strategy used by fly-by-night web businesses, but we're not a party to any of that. I do genuinely think retailers should have a presence in a product-specific board of this nature - it serves all involved. I personally think they are a great way to understand the early adopter market, an important and telling segment.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:14 pm GMT by Chapa
BPC
I understand on a buisness level that it cost to provide for Credit Card use, Ability to return ect. But.........
A friend of yours could make a lot of money selling chips that he gets from you on ebay.
Hey they are true clay at a good price and so come up with a generic design put it in some traditional colors and also try some wild colors. You would make your friend lots of money and lots of poker guys happy with the price.
Can I be your friend?
Chapa
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:25 pm GMT by Double Eagle
For me, it's the custom chips.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:41 pm GMT by fooge7
I think that group buys appeals to poker player that want something special (unique) and at a better cost. This is what drives the consumer to participate in group buys. I participated in the "suits" group buy. No problems here. Got a great looking chip, which probably no else has in my city at a great price with excellent service from the vendor that helped the group buy organizer.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:07 pm GMT by HELO
If you want to get some of the group buying markets money, simply start making more chips. The problem with this market of high end poker chips, is there are just two few options. People that have this level of passion for the game and its tools want there hard earned money to get them exactly what they want. They don't want to settle for somthing and they dont want to pay a thousand bucks.
SPAM - By the way, im a graphic designer. Will work for chips.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:50 pm GMT by B_rock
I'd have to agree with HELO, the high end chip market has the least variety. But rightfully so, it makes up the vast minority of chips sold.
To respond to BPC's comments earlier, I personally didn't like the idea of group buys because of the security factor. Period. That being said I did go in on the TR King group buy a few weeks ago because 1) I paid TR King directly with my credit card 2) He is shipping the chips to me, and not through another member 3) I saved $0.65/chip 4) TR King fully backs all of his products 4) Only myself and nine other people will have the chips I break out at my home game....high points for that one.
So, if organised correctly, group buy's are good for everyone. We all saved lots of money and Dennis will be keeping his machines running and making money!
I think for other group buy's (I'm thinking Ten's first egyptians) an escrow account is set up to protect the buyer from fraud. (correct me if I am wrong) And later they were arranged though another member and their online poker retail site. So they have some security there as well.
I'd hate to be Trademark or Apache if the custom Paulson's Ten is designing come to fruition.....that is a huge chunk of their sales of their own chips gone. From what I have read, most of the people would have bought the Bond's but this prospect is better.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:01 pm GMT by Gmack
I hate lurkers that dont ever post and when they do, its criticism.
There's as much security as there is on Ebay so thats like putting down people who use Ebay.
Your products are worthless as demonstrated on Ebay, people can't even get half of what they paid for originally from you. Who needs customer service? you order the hips, you get em, you use em. What service?
What can you provide? How to open the package? We can get much back if we decide to sell our customs, and pay less initially.
I think you are just upset that people have caught on that they can make thier own freakin chips too and they no longer have to buy from you!
Come out with an original chip or a mold thats worthwhile, like Nevada Jacks or Acepokerchipcompany, otherwise, STOP COMPLAINING!
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:20 pm GMT by Fat Tony
i would say the message of this group buy trend is that chip prices overall are in need of a downward correction.
why wouldn't we let group buy threads be posted?? it helps our members get a better price on chips. although this will be the first and last time any "e-mail me to use my affiliate links and get a discount" will be happening. if i had not been away for a few days at the same time Geno and the boys were in vegas that wouldn't have happened at all.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:53 pm GMT by Iron Butt
| Fat Tony wrote: | i would say the message of this group buy trend is that chip prices overall are in need of a downward correction.
|
Tony: Hear hear.
BPC: I note that you tried to back off a bit on the tone of your posts, but still it needs to be said I think: I know who Ten is: TenPercenter is someone many people here consider a friend. It's not much of a secret who he is, he posts his personal website. And the Egyptian chip buy was the prototype and perfect example of a group buy; beautiful, unique chips for less than ugly generic ones. Why would he need more than one chip set? Um, he's a chip collector; he has several sets of chips already. I imagine he wants a set of custom clays and is nice enough to let others in on it. Who the hell are you again? A chip salesman who needs to boost his sales. Fine, but you're not the only person qualified to sell a poker chip LOL, let's not get all snooty much less casting character aspersions or FUD or whatever the hell that was all about.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:53 pm GMT by MeridianFC
I've not taken part in any group buys to this point just because none have exactly met my needs. I would in future if the right thing came along. That said I think the reason for group buys are two fold:
1. Get good designs that are not currently available. In some cases serious quantity is needed to offset art charges or what have you. I have to say many of the designs put forward by some of the chip manufacturers or re-sellers suck.
What I'm surprised I haven't seen more of is the option for semi custom from some people (NJ ceramics do). The old Paulsons used to be this way. You could chose from about 16 body/edge spot styles and have your own insert put on. This is not the most secure option, but it is probably good enough for most of the moderate stakes games that folks hereabout play. I'd be happy with this type of thing.
2. Price. Even if you're only saving 16% or what have you, that can be some serious scratch, certainly for folks doing 500-1000+ chips.
Most folks who are willing to drop coin on their cheques really care about their game and want to mac. But there's a lot of things to spend one's hard earned $$$ on in this new poker explosion world. Tables ($200 for a folding job all the way to $4K on a Stein table), KEM cards ($35/set up), etc. Getting the best deal on the best items is the name of the game. It seems to me the poker community is saying that the more you move away from $1/chip the less they're going to buy. The less design choice you have, the less they're going to buy. If any old schmoe can get exactly the same chips, why bother (security and pride in play here).
People have to make concessions at some point, but you try to maxamize design potential and price break.
BPC, I know you're probably legitmate in your interest (for business reasons obviously) and you've declaimed any ill will towards ten percenter, but it really does sound like your trying to bring down the natural and collective efforts of the community. Sure it's good to be aware of the possibility of fraud, but it's also seems fair that folks can band together to use the power of numbers to get what they want. The big chip makers don't seem to want to listen to this segement of the markets so banding together seems the only way.
FWIW I have more than one chip set. I'll probably get even another.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:21 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| Iron Butt wrote: | | Plus I note that you tried to back off a bit on the tone of your posts |
not really, it just so happens that on this site i happen to be the guy that is the heavy when someone does something stupid so there is a perception sometimes that is the only thing i do. if i'm approached in a reasonable manner people get the same in return. spammers do not get treated well because frankly, they don't deserve to be.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:31 pm GMT by Iron Butt
Oops, sorry for the misunderstanding, I was quoting you but posting to the BPC rep. Edited my post accordingly.
Being a mod is always a thankless job but someone's got to do it etc. Besides, hey, I don't need no more trouble, know what I'm saying? Fuggedaboutit...
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 7:32 pm GMT by House of Payne
| BuyPokerChips wrote: | I just don't get it. I mean I understand the underlying concept of pooling purchasing power to get a volume discount. That's a straight-forward concept. What I don't get is:
|
BuyPokerChips,
Boil it all down and buying on the web is risky all the way around. Just because BPC.com has a picture of a retail store on their web site means nothing. Even the fact that the site has sold to hundreds (thousands?) of people and some have provided testimonials, it doesn't mean that I won't get scamed when I use that site. I went to BPC.com, clicked to buy a set, went to check out, and I checked the certificate of the site that I'm secure with. It should be BPC.com but it's... Yahoo! Now I'm giving my information to a middleman. Or did a DNS attack change BPC.com to Yahoo! and I'm about to get scammed. Or maybe it's a man in the middle attack?
Hats off to the broker of the Egyptians buy. He let Ten do all the work but recognized that there was a service to be offered and jumped on it. Nugzy is done the same thing. He found a service that he could provide although Fat Man doesn't like it. He will probably get a free set and each person will get $100+ off a great set of chips. In each case, people in the thread offer a service to the buy. There is teamwork and buy-in from everyone involved. And it works!
BPC.com could offer this same service to the Paulson group buy. Broker a deal for 250,000 chips with Trademark at B2B prices, get Ten and friends to do the artwork, offer them to posters in the group buy thread at .01 over cost, accept the payments, coordinate the distribution, provide shipping at cost, and sell off the extras for your profit. We all win! All we'd get the best at rock bottom prices.
You gain much more than us. You get a better line of chips with direct advertising to the people that are most interested in buying this product. You also get a thread that will be posted here for perhaps 2 years full of positive posts and pictures from people that know chips. As new members join, read the thread, browse the pictures, you get new business. You create goodwill with the members of this site and people will see that you deliver. Look at the relationship that PaulsonChips, HoldemPokerChips, Dice702, and TRKing has with this group. Of course, you now have an ugly thread to overcome but even Martha Stewart can remake an image.
Of course, you'd need to run your own server with your own Verisign certificate to get us to believe that you are a true business.
Respectfully,
House of Payne
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 8:18 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| Iron Butt wrote: | Oops, sorry for the misunderstanding, I was quoting you but posting to the BPC rep. Edited my post accordingly.
Being a mod is always a thankless job but someone's got to do it etc. Besides, hey, I don't need no more trouble, know what I'm saying? Fuggedaboutit... |
i hope i didn't give you the impression that i was upset about your post in any way because i'm not. so i don't know what this trouble you speak of involves.... :D
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:13 pm GMT by TenPercenter
Ok, I haven't had time to read all the responses yet, but I will. Although it appears on the surface that you are trying to undermine the two Paulson group buys, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and consider your post a true concern for the buyers.
Here are my thoughts:
Just about every point you make is wrong. Without going into details, here are the facts/rebuttals about my last Egyptian group buy, AND about the new Pharaoh's Club Paulson group buy:
* Motivation
All members get a great price, and pride in participating in (and owning a set with) a unique design
* Why are group buy posts are allowed?
These posts are allowed probably because they are a SERVICE to members.
* Giving money to a stranger, cash only, no returns, defective product etc
I will going through a retail distributor with my new Paulson group buy just as I did with the Egyptians. http://HoldemPokerChips.com did a wonderful job on my last group buy. They are courteous, helpful, trustworthy, and the owner is also a contributing poster on this and other forums. I challenge you to find A SINGLE BUYER in my group buys who disagrees.
http://HoldemPokerChips.com provided safe credit card sales, returnable product, and an extended buy period at original prices. Shipping is insured, well packed, and guaranteed with prompt tracking updates. This negates all of your points.
I haven't chosen a distributor yet for the Pharaoh's Club group buy, and you were actually on my list of calls to make once my order hit 50,000 units. I can now see that's one less call I need to make since it appears you are completely against this type of group buy.
* Little say over the design?
You must not have followed my countless design posts on 2+2. I know that I got very little response on this board, but over there the support and participation was enormous. On every stage of the chip design I posted photos and polls, and took all suggestions into consideration prior to making the final decision. I think everyone involved shared in my pride that we created a unique design that is well recieved everywhere in the poker chip community.
* Assuming the risk of a fraudulent group buy
Stephan, I think it was dispicable to single me out, when I've organized the biggest, safest group buy ever. And planning to top that one with the new Paulson group buy. I take offense as on behalf of myself and to the proprietor of HoldemPokerChips.com.
With sales being made by ESCROW in my first buy, credit card sales in the second, how can you even consider accusation?
* On top of you being wrong about all of those things, the most important point is that we GOT A BETTER PRICE! Try buying 1000 Chipco custom chips by yourself with a different design on each chip. You'll pay WELL over $2000 for those chips.
There. I said it.
Greg Cagle
aka Ten Percenter
4216 Los Robles Drive
Plano, TX 75074
817-798-5932
http://www.thecagles.com
http://www.lightningsolutions.net
http://www.tenpercenter.com
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:07 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| House of Payne wrote: | | Nugzy is done the same thing. He found a service that he could provide although Fat Man doesn't like it. |
you are dead wrong, i support nugzy's group buy so perhaps you should check your facts before putting words in my mouth. what i am against is him posting affiliate links because then everyone else would want to as well. in fact i cut him some slack in even allowing him to post the "e-mail me for my affiliate link to get a discount" because that is not allowed either. i allowed it because i didn't think it would be fair for some members to get this discount and some not have the opportunity. nugzy and i have hashed this out in PM and we are both satisfied so again, please check your facts before posting.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:13 pm GMT by Nugzy
Fat Tony and myself have talked via PM. He has a valid point. If he were to continue to let me post affiliate links, it wouldnt be fair to not allow others to do the same. He did cut me some slack and allow me to continue giving people the discount via email. Fat Tony was very polite in letting me know that he could not allow me to continue to post the links.
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:40 pm GMT by House of Payne
| Fat Tony wrote: | | although this will be the first and last time any "e-mail me to use my affiliate links and get a discount" will be happening. if i had not been away for a few days at the same time Geno and the boys were in vegas that wouldn't have happened at all. |
Nutzy is providing several services, all of which are a benefit to the members, ok maybe not all members. While I agree that you approve of most of them, otherwise the group buy thread would have been killed, and I could have been a bit more specific in exactly which service I felt you didn't approve of. The fact that the affiliate links were removed from his post and the quote above that "this will be the first and last..." left few facts that didn't point to you not liking the service of getting members an extra $100 discount using affiliate links.
Whether it was liked or not was not central to my post. The point was that people are providing services for each other and that is why the group buys work. And BPC.com is able to provide a service if they care to improve their image. A point that Ten just reiterated, before he crossed them off his list.
House of Payne
Posted Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:57 pm GMT by DaBear
Here, Here,
Ten
Very well put.
A beautiful set of unique chips at a great price.
With appreciation for all the work you put in to the effort.
Bear
Posted Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:49 am GMT by PaulsonChips
Well said Ten.
Posted Sat Mar 05, 2005 12:21 pm GMT by tomb1
A group buy is a great way to get something different at a decent price. It can be a hassle and take lots of time, but if that fits your needs and timing, go for it.
That's a trade-off vs. a typical retail site (vs. eBay as another option), but that's the good ole American capitalist system.
An online retailer could have "specials" 3-4 times a year -- organize a distinctive group buy, take orders (and prepay probably), hold it open for a month, then deliver some kick-ass chips. That would be great!
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 3:48 am GMT by Mechanic
WOW.....I gotta say I have been here awhile and have yet to see so many people dogpile. I think that the fact that BPC is a chip dealer caused this backlash.
Had he been a regular member, I think many here would have to step up and acknowlege that all of his points are valid. There ARE things being given up in SOME group buys and in life you usually 'get what you pay for'.
Having said that, if I were posting, I would not have chosen to site examples as it did not strengthen his point any, and Ten is above question here.
I think if you read his post points (excluding the reference to board members) you have to admit that his concerns/questions/points have merit. If you are considering a group buy or have participated in one and these points have not crossed your mind, you should conider doing more research before big purchases.
I am planning on getting in on the Paulson group buy to save the cash but know full well what I am chosing to give up to do it, if I can get the cash together in time. My wife and I actually had a discussion, about these very issues, and compared a direct buy versus the group buy.
I don't wanna start a big adversarial thing but standing by and watching BPC get smacked around for asking legitimate questions is not my style. After all, if he was trying to undermine anything he could have posted under a noob account and said all the same things anonymously.
I think his "research" is more of a polite way of saying 'hey guys...have you thought this out...?' I don't really buy the "research" angle because here is the answer to the research..... charge less for no refunds/no returns etc....
just my thoughts...
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:32 am GMT by Fat Tony
sure he had SOME valid observations, but his list of things people "give up" by participating in group buys was not entirely accurate. (at least IMO)
where he started losing it was when he started talking about group buys being too good for con-men to pass up. he started sounding somewhat bitter that people were organizing group buys to save money instead of buying from retailers. (like himself, perhaps?) sure a con could happen, but people are willing to assume the risk because most medium to high-end chips need a downward correction in their pricing. the fact that so many group buys are taking place is indicitive of this.
he also questions why this board allows members to organize group buys on the forum and not allow retailers to advertise on the forum......... because that's what the administration has decided, that's why. (this also sounds like sour grapes)
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:03 pm GMT by galderon
Allowing advertisers to post would open the floodgates that would eventually kill the board, but group-buys actually provide a service that cannot be replicated anywhere.
To answer BPC's original question, tomb1 has it exactly right...if online retailers periodically provided new, unique, limited run chip designs, that might spark some interest.
The designs on the BPC site right now are quite tame, IMHO, and overpriced to boot. In particular, I don't want the word "poker" imprinted on my poker chips, or on my poker table, or on any of my poker stuff, for that matter...I know that they're for poker. Why the inlays say poker and have dice on them, I have no idea.
Allow custom designs with a minimum order (like 5000), but encourage group-buys, and maybe offer a discount if the buyer is willing to let you sell the design to the public.
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:09 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| galderon wrote: | | I don't want the word "poker" imprinted on my poker chips, or on my poker table, or on any of my poker stuff, for that matter...I know that they're for poker. Why the inlays say poker and have dice on them, I have no idea. |
AMEN, BROTHER!!!
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 12:12 pm GMT by Mechanic
| Fat Tony wrote: | sure he had SOME valid observations, but his list of things people "give up" by participating in group buys was not entirely accurate. (at least IMO)
where he started losing it was when he started talking about group buys being too good for con-men to pass up. he started sounding somewhat bitter that people were organizing group buys to save money instead of buying from retailers. (like himself, perhaps?) sure a con could happen, but people are willing to assume the risk because most medium to high-end chips need a downward correction in their pricing. the fact that so many group buys are taking place is indicitive of this.
he also questions why this board allows members to organize group buys on the forum and not allow retailers to advertise on the forum......... because that's what the administration has decided, that's why. (this also sounds like sour grapes) |
I completely agree with this..... If I wasn't clear...let me clarifiy my thoughts.....
Most of his points regarding the risks associated with group buys were valid observations. I do completely disagree with the questioning the reason they are allowed here or suggesting that a known member here is running a "long scam".
I also am not a fan of the lower quality chips so BPC would have to start carrying the JB Paulsons for me to even visit the site ...just so I am clear 
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:17 pm GMT by JohnnyCache
I think the reason for the dogpile is that a room full of poker players is not the place to try crude manipulation. I didn't like BPC's propagandist tone one bit, and it made me evaluate what he had to say critically rather then openly.
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:12 pm GMT by Prettey Toney
I'd have to say that I am a "newbie" to the group buy thing.
I researched chips from all of the vendors, and recieved samples for months.
Up to this point, I still own "slugs" (metal slug insert chips)
However, I am currently waiting for some custom TRK's from the 2+2 group buy.
I have no idea how they will turn out, but I like the suspense.
I know that they will be nice chips because they are TRK's.
I got TRK's at less than a dollar, with custom edgespots and a custom inlay.
Phillip, or "Paulsonchips" organized the deal, and although I don't know him from the next guy, but he is reputable, has sent me other stuff in a timely manner, and overall I trust that he will get the job done.
I have had many problems with items from established retailers, so to say that just because chips are from a retailer then there wont be problems is BS. Although I've had these items resolved, to say that all problems are always resolved from retailers is BS as well. I'm sure somebody out there has been "screwed" by one of these retailers (maybe?)
So basically, I am using a group buy for my first set of "real" chips.
No risk, no reward.
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:15 pm GMT by Prettey Toney
| Quote: | | I haven't chosen a distributor yet for the Pharaoh's Club group buy |
Hey Ten,
can you tell me more about this? Is this already in the works? any threads on this or mockups yet? Or is this still in your head at this point? I'd have to say that I'm interested!
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:22 pm GMT by PanthersHUTCH15
Here Pretty Toney....They look like they will be awesome chips, but I am impatient and have some Bond Paulson's coming with the group buy.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1830091&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 8:39 pm GMT by Iron Butt
| Quote: | | WOW.....I gotta say I have been here awhile and have yet to see so many people dogpile. |
I dunno, I thought everyone was pretty restrained. If the original post had in fact been just a simple request for free marketing info I'd have been fine with it. BUT when you start associating a specific person with illegal acts, whether you also print a half-ass disclaimer or not, you better be ready to defend either your statements or yourself.
For instance, let's just assume for a minute that Mr. BPC and Mr. Mechanic are aliens who abduct schoolchildren and eat them. I'm not actually saying that of course, but let's just consider it. Oh, by the way, I'm selling alien repellent, just $32.50 a can to protect your kids from the terrible things that BPC and Mechanic may conceivably want to do to them, although I'm not actually saying that of course, I just want to sell you this nifty product here... See how that kinda shit gets real ugly real quick? And how maybe it's different when it's your name involved? I'd expect any adult to know how to act better than that, let alone a businessperson who should know the value of a person's name and reputation.
As far as I'm concerned Mr. BPC owes the forum and Ten an apology. And I also will never buy from BPC, and will recommend "anyone but BPC" anytime anyone asks me.
Posted Sun Mar 06, 2005 10:35 pm GMT by Mechanic
| Iron Butt wrote: | | Quote: | | WOW.....I gotta say I have been here awhile and have yet to see so many people dogpile. |
I dunno, I thought everyone was pretty restrained. If the original post had in fact been just a simple request for free marketing info I'd have been fine with it. BUT when you start associating a specific person with illegal acts, whether you also print a half-ass disclaimer or not, you better be ready to defend either your statements or yourself.
For instance, let's just assume for a minute that Mr. BPC and Mr. Mechanic are aliens who abduct schoolchildren and eat them. I'm not actually saying that of course, but let's just consider it. Oh, by the way, I'm selling alien repellent, just $32.50 a can to protect your kids from the terrible things that BPC and Mechanic may conceivably want to do to them, although I'm not actually saying that of course, I just want to sell you this nifty product here... See how that kinda shit gets real ugly real quick? And how maybe it's different when it's your name involved? I'd expect any adult to know how to act better than that, let alone a businessperson who should know the value of a person's name and reputation.
As far as I'm concerned Mr. BPC owes the forum and Ten an apology. And I also will never buy from BPC, and will recommend "anyone but BPC" anytime anyone asks me. |
in case you missed part of my posts let me recap: (added emphasis mine)
"Having said that, if I were posting, I would not have chosen to site examples as it did not strengthen his point any, and Ten is above question here."
"I think if you read his post points (excluding the reference to board members)"
hope this helps make very clear that I supported his analysis of the inherent risks of group buys but NOT anything related to your post.
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:00 am GMT by BuyPokerChips
Relax Ten... or Mr. Cagle... or HoldemPokerChips.com... or whoever!
Not singling you out (and I appologize if I made you feel that way), just using your group buy as an example. I'm just trying to understand how and why these things work, and what need it serves, which I've been enlightened by in many of the posts to this thread. I don't have anything against group buys, they sound great to me for all involved if it's all above board. They serve the community just like retailers do, just a little differently. Retailers speculate, group buys are more grassroots, which I understand is appealing (and I applaud).
Oddly enough, in the midst of this thread, a strange thing occurred to me, it seems to me that these particular group buys are nothing more than a means of working the bulletin board system in themselves. In my mind, Holdempokerchips.com is a chip retailer like any other that gets around advertising on boards by doing "group buys". I mean they sell these things on their site after the group buys, right. I can buy 300 of the Eqyptian's right now for $300 plus shipping, and they're advertised all over this board. How's that different from a retailer coming out with a line of chips. Ingenious really, aside from the fact that it's a lot of frick'n work. Kind of like the American Idol of the Internet. I see Holdempokerchips.com as the originating body, and a somewhat seedy one in my brief experience with them. After all they, in fact, publically sell my Vintage Vegas chips on their http://www.holdempokerchips.com/proddetail.asp?prod=YSET83&cat=18 site (it appears as in stock sets which anyone could buy 2, 3, or 10 of) even though I've emailed them several months ago to cease and desist in reselling our company's goods without permission (not to mention these chips are no longer made).
Holdempokerchip.com, I have a problem with. Group buys, I don't have any problem whatsoever.
Now, onto some other setiments of the board members. I would like to reiterate that I have no problem whatsoever with group buys. I think you're smart to take advantage of them, so long as you do your homework and don't get taken for a ride. They are merely a force of the market, as Fat Tony points out. It would be silly of me to have an issue with them. I'm furthermore not trying to undermine them. There is really no point for me to do that. First off, my customer base is quite different than the segment that is well suited for group buys. Second, everyone knows that any commercial entity stepping into a board is going to get attacked (if for no other reason than they are a commercial entity toiling in the overtly non-commercial birthplace of the web). I come in occassionally and post, inspite of knowing this will happen, because it's a part of our market that is important to understand. If you want to take that as an attack on the sanctity of non-commercial boards, you take yourselves too seriously. It's just an attempt at trying to get to know the customer, even if it inevitably will have some negative side-effects, you still get good market information out of the attempt. Well worth it in my mind, and I believe board-goers would have a more enriched experience if they had less of a chip on their shoulder about commerce and hobby co-mingling. What's the harm really?
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:11 am GMT by PaulsonChips
I didnt want to get involved in this because Im a retailer mylself and my opinions are obviously biased, but throwing punches at Mike from Holdempokerchips.com is something I resent.
He is one of the greatest contributors to this forum and I have NEVER seen him use this forum to his advantage. He is a great guy and a great retailer. Im sure 100% of the forum members here can back me on that.
Now back to the topic!
(Im out!)
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:24 am GMT by TenPercenter
| Quote: | Relax Ten... or Mr. Cagle... or HoldemPokerChips.com... or whoever!
Not singling you out, just using your group buy as an example.
Ingenious really. I see Holdempokerchips.com as the originating body, and a somewhat seedy one in my brief experience with them. After all they, in fact, publically sell my Vintage Vegas chips on their site (it appears as in stock sets which anyone could buy 2, 3, or 10 of) even though I've emailed them to cease and desist in reselling our company's goods without permission (not to mention these chips are no longer made).
Holdempokerchip.com, I have a problem with. Group buys, I don't have any problem whatsoever. |
It continues to amaze me, your portrayed obtuseness. You act like all of this is new to you, including pretending as if you've never heard of me, or HoldemPokerChips.com, or "whoever." I mean, come on, you spent four paragraphs trying to instill doubt in my SPECIFIC group buy. And now you say in essence, "Oh, that reminds me, I have a beef with HoldemPokerChips.com! They as my competitor sell a product that I'm out of stock on!" Come on Stephan, the guy can sell whatever he wants! And he even credits your site in the sale! Jeez, you're dealing a low blow here...
It looks as though your vendetta goes deeper than just being bested by a bunch of chip junkies doing group buys. Or, you just like to take jabs at everyone in the chip industry. Any other half-veiled insinuations you want to make?
Ten
p.s. Your complaint reminds me of a story I heard about Sam Walton where he went and BOUGHT OUT all the ladies underwear from his competitor across the street. Then he offered them at a discount to everyone, and his competitor had no underwear. Go Sam!
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:34 am GMT by TenPercenter
| Quote: | | Second, everyone knows that any commercial entity stepping into a board is going to get attacked (if for no other reason than they are a commercial entity toiling in the overtly non-commercial birthplace of the web). ... I come in occassionally and post... |
Sorry Stephan, I have to call BS on that. Your original diatribe was well thought out, well laid out, and time consuming. I hardly call that "an occasional post."
You had an agenda, or you wouldn't have wasted that much time posting this blustering speech on several web sites.
Other commercial entities that post here actually have HELPFUL POSTS. They take part in questions and answers, not insinuations, accusations and moaning.
Ten
If I am being out of line board members please tell me. I'll just start ignoring this guy.
p.s. Stephan, it's hard to counter your points when you keep editing your post. Can you please just say what you mean and leave it at that?
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 7:57 am GMT by TenPercenter
| Iron Butt wrote: | | For instance, let's just assume for a minute that Mr. BPC and Mr. Mechanic are aliens who abduct schoolchildren and eat them. I'm not actually saying that of course, but let's just consider it. Oh, by the way, I'm selling alien repellent, just $32.50 a can to protect your kids from the terrible things that BPC and Mechanic may conceivably want to do to them, although I'm not actually saying that of course, I just want to sell you this nifty product here... |
This had me laughing out loud. Well done IB.
Ten
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:49 am GMT by millrat
Don't post all that often but I have gathered a wealth of info from this and other forums. It strikes me that BPC's comments are designed to undermine my confidence in the free exchange of such information. He infers that I can't sift through the fertilizer and need protection. Don't need some one else to protect my interests!! Do your "market research" elsewhere.
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 9:56 am GMT by Double Eagle
Go Ten!
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:18 am GMT by Grumbler
Reading through this thread has been interesting, to say the least. Most people who bother to spend $500 and up on poker chips are smart enough to recognize the risks involved with buying from a poster in an online forum.
I feel that BPC is insulting everyone's intelligence when he professes to be "looking out for us" poor schleps. His original post was "looking for understanding" and perhaps I have been "around the horn" too many times but I found that post to be too self serving and disingenuous.
If I was you BPC I would cut my losses and run because your continued posting is making you look even worse and hardening the feelings people are having towards you. Just my $.02
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 10:27 am GMT by Double Eagle
I assume BPC did not attend business school at either Wharton or Harvard!
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:41 pm GMT by BuyPokerChips
Boy, I think this post thread really struck a nerve with some on this board. Some people are getting awfully defensive (and offensive).
I think the reality is that there are 3 groups of people on boards: 1) information gatherers and sharers, 2) self-interested commercial entities, and 3) commercial entities that take a lot of time and effort to disguise their commercial nature so they can use the boards as if they were a regular board member in an effort to leverage board traffic in a backdoor manner.
I obviously fall into #2. I use my company name as my ID. I obviously use the boards out of self-interest, but I let you know who I am and what I'm doing. I'm not really afraid to do so, even though some would like me to be. (and thus the reason for the calculated attacks). Most of the board participants fall into number #1. I see both of these groups as honest and this I respect.
The people that fall into group #3 seem to be a hypocritical group that is on constant alert for any commercial entity, ready to pounce so no one steps on their "hard earned territory". They are commercial themselves after all. This in my mind is somewhat desperate and definitely dispicable - pretending to be something you're not.
Now if that strikes a little too close to home, you know who I'm talking about. And that's my 2 cents on that subject.
Hey, these boards are a lot of fun after all!
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 12:59 pm GMT by galderon
Isn't there a saying, "It's my pool, if you don't like my rules, you can swim elsewhere?" It doesn't matter what rules the moderations agree upon on what is and isn't proper board behavior. It's their board. If you have a problem with board policy, take it up with the moderators privately.
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:33 pm GMT by warewulf619
| BuyPokerChips wrote: | Boy, I think this post thread really struck a nerve with some on this board. Some people are getting awfully defensive (and offensive).
I think the reality is that there are 3 groups of people on boards: 1) information gatherers and sharers, 2) self-interested commercial entities, and 3) commercial entities that take a lot of time and effort to disguise their commercial nature so they can use the boards as if they were a regular board member in an effort to leverage board traffic in a backdoor manner.
I obviously fall into #2. I use my company name as my ID. I obviously use the boards out of self-interest, but I let you know who I am and what I'm doing. I'm not really afraid to do so, even though some would like me to be. (and thus the reason for the calculated attacks). Most of the board participants fall into number #1. I see both of these groups as honest and this I respect.
The people that fall into group #3 seem to be a hypocritical group that is on constant alert for any commercial entity, ready to pounce so no one steps on their "hard earned territory". They are commercial themselves after all. This in my mind is somewhat desperate and definitely dispicable - pretending to be something you're not.
Now if that strikes a little too close to home, you know who I'm talking about. And that's my 2 cents on that subject.
Hey, these boards are a lot of fun after all! |
Which group am I in? How about the WONT BUY YOUR CRAP EVER AGAIN GROUP.
-crosspost from 2+2-
I'm boycotting you.
Your obviously bitter that your chips are not selling well and trying to jump on the bandwagon that we have created.
You're only motivation -- to make money. Our motivation is to have cool chips and cut out the greedy middle man like you.
Get off our board and go back to selling your crappy, ugly chips. You're not getting any help from us. I have recomended the archetypes many times in the past, will no longer do so.
What I think of your attitude and your chips: 
Bite me!
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 2:55 pm GMT by tabascojrc
| BuyPokerChips wrote: |
The people that fall into group #3 seem to be a hypocritical group that is on constant alert for any commercial entity, ready to pounce so no one steps on their "hard earned territory". They are commercial themselves after all. This in my mind is somewhat desperate and definitely dispicable - pretending to be something you're not.
Now if that strikes a little too close to home, you know who I'm talking about. And that's my 2 cents on that subject.
Hey, these boards are a lot of fun after all! |
Failing miserably, You've got your groups mixed up here. The member whom you not so stealthfully accused along with others have proven themselves to be some of the most helpful members of the board long before any knowledge of thier commercial ventures. When those ventures served to benefit the members of the site as well as themselves, they stepped in to help out. Why would any member complain or be upset. Why would we think this dispicable. We don't. I find it quite admirable that the certain someone whom everyone here knows you are pointing to was able to help ,not one, but 2 large groups out. Did he benefit from it in the end, yes, but so did all the forum members.
What have you done to benefit the forum members?
Why can't someone resell a product they bought from you?
You fall into category number 4....Bitter.
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:10 pm GMT by yeltzen
If I sold crap chips, I'd be bitter too.
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 3:34 pm GMT by jojobinks
BPC:
i think you need to give it up. you lost. i'm sure you can still sell your chips to folks who dont' know any better, but you can't save face here or the other board. you've embarassed yourself, and you need to suck it up and move on.
i'm still entirely confused about your motivations and your expectations. once you cold-call a bet with A7o, though, you need to play it correctly from there. the correct move now is to piss off.
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:40 pm GMT by Iron Butt
| Mechanic wrote: |
hope this helps make very clear that I supported his analysis of the inherent risks of group buys but NOT anything related to your post. |
Sorry Mechanic, it was a little out of line of me to associate you with BPC especially in view of the rep he's making for himself, certainly you don't deserve that although of course I didn't actually say anything about you...
I guess my view on your point is that the let's just say irresponsible content of BPC's posts outweighs the other points. If you piss on the rug, you have to leave the party. I found all that kind of obvious and crass anyway. Nobody owes it to this guy to help him figure out how to make money off chip buys, which are obviously intended in the first place to operate outside the retail market and would lose a lot of their purpose once someone started taking a big chunk of profit off the top. In fact to me that's spam, but like I say that's a secondary concern to me in this case that I probably would have just ignored.
So anyway, sorry about that Mechanic.
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:55 pm GMT by Wooderson
BuyPokerChips wrote | Quote: | | The people that fall into group #3 seem to be a hypocritical group that is on constant alert for any commercial entity, ready to pounce so no one steps on their "hard earned territory". They are commercial themselves after all. |
Odd. That item seems like a veiled reference to Mike at HoldemPokerChips.com, yet he hasn't even replied to the thread. Unless you mean to accuse TenPercenter, who of course is a chip junkie with superior organizational skills and a very high motivation to get things done rather than a commercial entity.
Seriously, I can understand the market research angle. That makes perfect sense to me as a business owner. But for all of your very calm and methodic positioning, you certainly haven't done anything to help your cause by consistently attacking, both passively and aggressively,some of the more respected folk around here.
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:07 pm GMT by PaulsonChips
2 thumbs up for Ten and MSPatton! :D
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 5:10 pm GMT by Fins
| PaulsonChips wrote: | I didnt want to get involved in this because Im a retailer mylself and my opinions are obviously biased, but throwing punches at Mike from Holdempokerchips.com is something I resent.
He is one of the greatest contributors to this forum and I have NEVER seen him use this forum to his advantage. He is a great guy and a great retailer. Im sure 100% of the forum members here can back me on that.
|
I echo this sentiment!
Take your beef elsewhere!
- Fins
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:11 pm GMT by Mechanic
| Iron Butt wrote: | | Mechanic wrote: |
hope this helps make very clear that I supported his analysis of the inherent risks of group buys but NOT anything related to your post. |
Sorry Mechanic, it was a little out of line of me to associate you with BPC especially in view of the rep he's making for himself, certainly you don't deserve that although of course I didn't actually say anything about you...
I guess my view on your point is that the let's just say irresponsible content of BPC's posts outweighs the other points. If you piss on the rug, you have to leave the party. I found all that kind of obvious and crass anyway. Nobody owes it to this guy to help him figure out how to make money off chip buys, which are obviously intended in the first place to operate outside the retail market and would lose a lot of their purpose once someone started taking a big chunk of profit off the top. In fact to me that's spam, but like I say that's a secondary concern to me in this case that I probably would have just ignored.
So anyway, sorry about that Mechanic. |
No apology needed IB!!!
I got a great laugh out of the alien reference and I was pretty sure you weren't lumping me with BPC. I did want to make sure the record was clear because he has degraded from having valid points regarding safely buying chips to a pissing contest he lost 3 pages back. I didn't want to be put in his "boat" as he drills holes in the bottom.
I am not sure he had much to lose to begin with though. Let's analyze it:
-Sells chips inferior to JB Paulsons for more money
nuff said!
I can understand him being pissed, but get pissed at Paulson for making a better product at a lower price point, not the customers who organize to buy them :D
I would still echo his base concerns to a new buyer but being a part of an established community, such as this, and dealing with known members is win-win all the way.
BPC....I was the only thing here resembling a supporter and your beating this dead horse and veiled accusations are turning even me off. Don't leave mad.....just leave!
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:12 pm GMT by JHile31
This tread completly changed my mind about BPC.com. Before I read this I had no problem with BPC, I just thought their chips were ugly and overpriced (especially because they were ugly). I would have probably bought from them if they would have added some good looking clay chips for a decent price. Now I have no respect for BPC and refuse to buy in the future...
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:23 pm GMT by yeltzen
Looks like this guy will be changing his sig to "Formerly of buypokerchips.com" pretty soon. 
Posted Mon Mar 07, 2005 6:49 pm GMT by House of Payne
BPC,
Martha Stewart is home now, actually 24/7. You should probably call and get those reputation rebuilding tips I talked about. Try 1-800-REP-SHOT
I'm not sure I understand attacking a competitor that has bought chips from you and is selling them at a price that is $80 more than yours. If he's hurting your business it isn't because he's selling more of your chips than you are! I'd actually be surprised if he is able to sell any of them with all his other great offerings.
House of Payne
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:02 am GMT by ledavatar
Lol ok, BPC speaks as if it holds a better level of service in having a retail website. Read on...
The following are descriptions and pics of actual email transactions from my one and only purchase from that website (way back in Aug04 when I didn't know any better than to pay $2/chip for Chipco samples).
8/15/04 - I email BPC.com asking if I can change the denominations for the Chipco Archetype sample pack to 10 of the $100s only. BPC.com replies yes, just make a note in the shipping notes during online ordering.
8/16/04 - I place an order online indicating that I would like 2 of each denomination chip, and if it goes over the 10 chips in the sample pack, to bill be accordingly ($2/chip). At the time, the website had $2 denominations mentioned in some parts but not others, so I wasn't sure if it was going to be 6 or 7 different denominations. In any case, my order was for 12 or 14 chips, and if I can't get 2 of each denom, hold my order and email me.
8/17/04 - Order shipped! $19.95 charged. Hrmm, I guess they must have sent 2 or 4 additional chips for free?
8/19/04 The chips arrived! Hrmm, only 10 chips, 1 of each of the 6 denoms plus 2 additional for the $100s and $25s. Standard pack I guess.
Ok, this is not some horrible order-gone-awry story, but it just shows you that they screwed up my order with crystal clear instructions, fully expecting a denomination change request from the email exchange a day before the order.
Yes, I know I could have called and probably correct the matter, but it was such a small order, and I probably would have had to go through the trouble of sending chips back. The point is, having customer service is great, but not at the expense of screwing up the order in the first place. The Archetype chips are beautiful - I loved it then and I love it now. The pictures show a well worn set of 10 chips that I shuffle everyday. I actually considered ordering a full set of around 500, but I had serious doubts when I encountered problems on the first order.
BPC, if you're serious about service, here's something for you - it is now 7 months after my order. What would you like to do to correct it? 
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:48 am GMT by ChkDeezNuts
We should have a archetype and modern clay burning party.
Okay mr. BPC.com....
You want input?
The archetype's are great chips except for the edge spots which are a little crappy......the $1 are fine...the rest suck.....your modern clay are too light...sandy....and the inlay's are off center on about 40% of them....the rest of the crap you sell on your site is over priced.
There...you got input.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:14 am GMT by Prettey Toney
Illegal 12th man on the field,
unsportsman-like conduct,
BuyPokerChips ejected from the stadium,
suspended for the season,
Group Buy's carry on, repeat 1st down
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:41 am GMT by tabascojrc
at least he wised up and stopped posting as it was only hurting.
Although I would like to hear his reasoning/whining about how someone is reselling the chips that he stopped producing.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:31 am GMT by The_Manimal
| tabascojrc wrote: | | Although I would like to hear his reasoning/whining about how someone is reselling the chips that he stopped producing. |
I would be interested in this too. It's not like Holdempokerchips.com claims to have unlimited sets...they are listed under "specialty sets" that clearly outlines this, as well as where they came from (as pointed out earlier). Why should Mike at HPC.com be held in contempt just because he has a "commercial" website to try to (re)-sell this? What's so different from this compared to someone who bought the set and wants to sell it on Ebay? Would things be any different if he had it up on w3.myhomepage.com?
How's this for irony: The "word I heard" why this line was cancelled was that ASM refused to make anymore for BPC.com when they found out their product was simply being marked up and re-marketed by a competitor. Thus, BPC.com moved onto the BlueChip Modern Clays (lesser quality overall, not to mention that horrible "numerals and suits" mold) and repeated the process all over.
As to all the other sentiments in this thread, folks have said/echoed my thoughts already. I mean, come on, how hard is it to really "understand" why group buys are popular? Despite all efforts to sound sincere, it came off to me as a bitter vendor who is watching consumers work the system around the middle-man, and can't seem to stop it with good business practices. Perhaps if you came down a bit on the absolutely OUTRAGEOUS markup on the product and tried to make a fair profit instead of gouging the market while poker is hot, you might glean some dedicated customers for the long haul. (which, ironically again, I think that is exactly what Mike and Ten have done here with their efforts to help all of us instead of insulting us.....)
-The Manimal
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:26 pm GMT by Iron Butt
(see pic of BPC chips above)
Damn, those are ugly, aren't they?? Like heinously ridiculously supa-fugly-ugly. I can't find a single thing I like about them.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 1:54 pm GMT by BuyPokerChips
Guo,
Your replacement chips will go in the mail today. Your USPS delivery confirmation number is: 9101805213907536260998.
Sorry about fouling up your order. These sample packs are pre-packed, and we explicitly state denominations are random, and that we don't take requests as it slows the process down. Nonetheless, we promised to make an exception to this rule for you and we failed in fulfilling that. Next time, just send us a quick email and we'll rectify the situation immediately.
- Stephan
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:12 pm GMT by dgold41
Heck, I don't see anything wrong with group buys as long as it is done in a trustworthy way. The Paulson buy, which I am not a participant, seems honest and valuable to members. The Paulson buy would not be placed by some nobody who takes your CC# through email and empties your account/credit line but rather through the actual producer, if critical mass is reached. The idea makes complete sense to me and should to BPC. BPC can just as easily facilitate themselves to do something similar with a custom chip by a top tier manufacturing company. Maybe he could make amends with a quality product offered at a reasonable price to woo the nay sayers.
As for the Archtype bashing, I think some people are looking for excuses to indirectly put his comments down, which is not the proper way to express a view. Those are beautiful chips, but are too expensive when compared to similar chips. Which leads to say that good poker chips (Paulson, NJ, Archtype other Bluechip, Chipcos) are expensive and usually an investment or lifetime type purchase so why not save money? The tone in this thread is rightly against BPC, but it should be against his idea and not against all his products.
I hope BPC realizes that group buys are a way for the consumer to save money on an overpriced product. It seems to me that home, high-end poker chips are an evolving-emerging market since poker has become a growing phenom. With that said, one would expect prices to decline as the market launches new chips and competition picks up. If the market grows enough the prices of chips will decline. So in conclusion, I am for group buys and hope BPC realizes the error in judgement with the directional posts. Message boards host different types of people as is the objective, sometimes ideas will conflict and when they do, watch out because someone will be very unhappy. It's a lesson for BPC, perhaps costly because of this forum's popularity.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:17 pm GMT by TenPercenter
You are right, but consumers speak with their wallets, you know?
Ten
| dgold41 wrote: | | As for the Archtype bashing, I think some people are looking for excuses to indirectly put his comments down, which is not the proper way to express a view. ... The tone in this thread is rightly against BPC, but it should be against his idea and not against all his products. |
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:20 pm GMT by PinataUT
Archtypes: weak edge spots (weaker than my Egyptians edge spots)
The 'resale' argument: if you sold to him without tax, you knew he was reselling them. If you sold a bulk lot to him without restriction, you have no beef. If you had some other arrangement and you think he's violating it, do something appropriate about it.
The boards have presented their recipe for a 'group order' success. Other models may work better or worse. I'll let you figure out whether your present path was appropriate as you try to figure out what to do with the unpopular part of your inventory.
Plus side: I like your casino map on your site.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:50 pm GMT by Iron Butt
| Quote: | | As for the Archtype bashing, I think some people are looking for excuses to indirectly put his comments down, which is not the proper way to express a view. |
Just my opinion, but I do honestly think those are ugly. I suppose I would be more polite about it in different circumstances.
I would even go so far as to state as fact that that is a terrible design. I know a little bit about graphic design as it's part of my job and I can't see a single principle of design that is being followed there. There are way too many competing elements, no integration at all, most of the colors clash, the laurel wreath is completely out of context, is that supposed be a gear or way too many fake edge spots or ?
A given individual may like them or not, but I honestly believe you could show those to 10 trained professional graphics designers and they would all say "Damn, those are ugly."
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 3:52 pm GMT by BuyPokerChips
My final post, guys… you can think that I’m just a retailer who feels he has “lost” but retailer or not, no one likes bad karma and I didn’t come to your forum to cause trouble. So…
Topic #1 – the tone of my original post
I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about all this. I apologize if the tone of my posts sounded accusatory; as you all know, I don’t post often, and I was essentially thinking out loud in my original post without thinking through the nuances and qualifying my opinions. It has snowballed from here, and it’s human nature to defend yourself when under attack. As some of you have pointed out, I did have some valid points even if I used a poor example.
Topic #2 – attacking Ten
In my original post, I said
| Quote: | Let's take TenPercenter's group buy of 100,000 Paulson chips "you read that right, 100,000 chip order", on a different board, for example. Now, no offense TenPercenter, I'm not accusing you in any way of running a scam. Rahter I'm just pointing out that if a confidence man was to run a scam, they could do something very similar to what you've done and perhaps walk away with 2 years salary for the average person on this 100,000 chip group buy alone, not to mention replicating this on every product-specific board on the Internet.
Some out there might be saying, wait, TenPercenter already did at least one group buy (on the Pharoah's Club Chipco) and everyone got their chips just fine. So there's no risk right? He's proved himself trustful. Or you could take the perspective that it was just the first step in a long con, one that could really bilk a bunch of people our of some cash, like a 100,000 chip order. After all, why would he organize a 2nd group buy when he already has his perfect chip set from the first buy. Who needs two different sets of chips? |
In the first paragraph, I made it a point to say that I was NOT accusing Ten. However, in the second paragraph, I mention the long con and also Ten. I did NOT mean to connect these two and imply that Ten was conning anyone. I was simply going off the example and lumped Ten in. Someone could – though apparently you guys have set up safeguards that I wasn’t aware of.
Topic #3 - In closing...
Although I might have stated it clumsily, I was in fact trying to find out more about your market segment, and I have learned quite a bit. My general take away is this:
- There is a strong general consensus among board members that the currently available designs available to the consumer market is lacking.
- Board members want more say in design and pricing of chips, and are willing to make trade-offs, if necessary.
- Board members seem to dislike the word "Poker" on our Modern Clay chips.
- Some board members believe there is need for a downward adjustment on prices in the high-end of the chip market.
Lastly, I'd like to say we support poker chip consumers (Perhaps in a different manner than Ten and other group buyer organizers), but still we support the market. Do we have healthy retail margins? You can't survive and innovate over the long term without them. We're a business like any other, and we reinvest our profits in an effort to move the market forward and bring better and better chips to the market. We serve a specific target market of customers that want the highest quality chips, they want them quickly and without any hassles, and they're willing to pay a premium price to get what they want, when they want.
While some on this board say there is a need for a downward price adjustment, we and our customer base believe quite the opposite. The result of this perceived need for a downward price adjustment is what you're seeing from Paulson - a chip on a mold that is different than what consumers what (they just reused their standard demo chip mold), inlays that don't even fit the mold, and less and less variety of designs as they only are interested in 100,000 to 250,000 chip orders. So, in essence, more of the same. That's what consumers get for the price they're willing to pay is what the company line appears to be.
We're looking to get the best chips possible, and pay what is necessary. Price is not really a primary consideration. We believe there are tremendous strides left to be made in chip design, quality, and manufacturing technology in the chip market. Furthermore, we believe the high-end of the chip market can only be advanced by retailers and manufacturers that have an interest in improving poker chips for the home market, and this improvement requires investment, and a genuine interest in serving the needs of this market.
That's why we posted this thread in the first place. And now, we've said about all we can say, it's back to business.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 4:37 pm GMT by yeltzen
| BuyPokerChips wrote: | - Some board members believe there is need for a downward adjustment on prices in the high-end of the chip market.
While some on this board say there is a need for a downward price adjustment, we and our customer base believe quite the opposite. The result of this perceived need for a downward price adjustment is what you're seeing from Paulson - a chip on a mold that is different than what consumers what (they just reused their standard demo chip mold), inlays that don't even fit the mold, and less and less variety of designs as they only are interested in 100,000 to 250,000 chip orders. So, in essence, more of the same. That's what consumers get for the price they're willing to pay is what the company line appears to be. |
This is comical. Seriously. What feature the Modern Clay design screams "VARIETY"? What feature of the Archetype design screams "VARIETY"? Nothing. These are two of the most generic-looking poker chips on the market. With the clay, I can cut a little slack - they are more restricted. But with ceramics, come on. This was the best you could come up with? I don't think Nevada Jacks asked for input from their consumers, and they developed two very unique-looking ceramic chips. Sure, they're either love-it or hate-it designs, but they sure as hell are more interesting. Doesn't seem like the damand for lower prices caused their design team to create "more of the same".
The Paulsons are bland, yes. So are your clay chips. So are most clay chips. However, the Paulson chip itself, removed from its design, is in ever way, shape, and form superior to your chip. You have no room to criticize. Sure, the Paulsons have some design issues. So do your chips. Your mold is hideous. The inlays are rarely centered. Get over yourself. All things being equal with design problems, it's the chip that matters. For your clays to be in the same price range (possibly more?) as the Paulsons is laughable.
I'm interested to see how unique your next chips are. After all, you don't believe in keeping the price down in exchange for lower quality, so you should producing chips and designs that are clearly superior to all other chips.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:44 pm GMT by Double Eagle
Time to close this thread.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:11 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| Double Eagle wrote: | | Time to close this thread. |
no it isn't, people will want to respond to BPC's most recent post. when it is indeed time to close the thread i'll be sure and let you know.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:31 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| Quote: | | - Some board members believe there is need for a downward adjustment on prices in the high-end of the chip market. |
your post was sounding quite reasonable until this statement where you definitely revealed your bias against lowering prices. in all your other summarizations from this thread you started with the "board members feel..." exceept for the one on price where you say "some board members feel...." funny, i didn't see one post other than yours disagreeing with prices needing a bit of a downward correction. as far as i'm concerned, the credibility of your entire post got thrown out the window right there.
| Quote: | | We're looking to get the best chips possible, and pay what is necessary. Price is not really a primary consideration. |
i have no problem with this statement on it's own, but then you go on to say.......
| Quote: | | We believe there are tremendous strides left to be made in chip design, quality, and manufacturing technology in the chip market. Furthermore, we believe the high-end of the chip market can only be advanced by retailers and manufacturers that have an interest in improving poker chips for the home market, and this improvement requires investment, and a genuine interest in serving the needs of this market. |
i have no problem paying top dollar for a top-notch product, but this definitely isn't the case as you acknowledge. you seem to be saying that we shouldn't mind paying top dollar for a less than top-notch product because the extra money we pay will fund "improvements" to the product line. i say BULLSHIT! the extra money goes straight into retailers (like yourself) pockets. since when do retailers fund improvements to product lines?? the fact is they don't, manufacturers do.
| Quote: | | While some on this board say there is a need for a downward price adjustment, we and our customer base believe quite the opposite. |
there's that word "some" again. are you actually trying to tell me that your customers would say "no, we don't want to pay less, use the extra money to improve the product". RIIIIIGHT.......i might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 7:33 pm GMT by yeltzen
| Quote: |
are you actually trying to tell me that your customers would say "no, we don't want to pay less, use the extra money to improve the product". RIIIIIGHT.......i might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. |
After reading through this post and seeing how he deals with his market, would you expect anything less than this delusional comment?
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:41 pm GMT by PaulsonChips
I actually think that the Archetypes are really nice looking chips, minus the "poker" of course. 
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:45 pm GMT by yeltzen
| PaulsonChips wrote: | | I actually think that the Archetypes are really nice looking chips, minus the "poker" of course. |
Aside from the middle, I do like the design on the face of the chip. The middle kills it though. So do the non-existent edge spots.
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 9:30 pm GMT by Deakon
Damn Fat Tony, you beat me to that point you made in regards to BPC's statement about "downward prices." That was a good catch and makes complete sense after rereading his latest post. I also agree with you about where the "extra money" goes to when considering the retailers themselves. Thanks for leaving this thread open for now, giving people a chance to respond. :D
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:29 pm GMT by Mechanic
| Fat Tony wrote: | | Quote: | | - Some board members believe there is need for a downward adjustment on prices in the high-end of the chip market. |
your post was sounding quite reasonable until this statement where you definitely revealed your bias against lowering prices. in all your other summarizations from this thread you started with the "board members feel..." exceept for the one on price where you say "some board members feel...." funny, i didn't see one post other than yours disagreeing with prices needing a bit of a downward correction. as far as i'm concerned, the credibility of your entire post got thrown out the window right there.
| Quote: | | We're looking to get the best chips possible, and pay what is necessary. Price is not really a primary consideration. |
i have no problem with this statement on it's own, but then you go on to say.......
| Quote: | | We believe there are tremendous strides left to be made in chip design, quality, and manufacturing technology in the chip market. Furthermore, we believe the high-end of the chip market can only be advanced by retailers and manufacturers that have an interest in improving poker chips for the home market, and this improvement requires investment, and a genuine interest in serving the needs of this market. |
i have no problem paying top dollar for a top-notch product, but this definitely isn't the case as you acknowledge. you seem to be saying that we shouldn't mind paying top dollar for a less than top-notch product because the extra money we pay will fund "improvements" to the product line. i say BULLSHIT! the extra money goes straight into retailers (like yourself) pockets. since when do retailers fund improvements to product lines?? the fact is they don't, manufacturers do.
| Quote: | | While some on this board say there is a need for a downward price adjustment, we and our customer base believe quite the opposite. |
there's that word "some" again. are you actually trying to tell me that your customers would say "no, we don't want to pay less, use the extra money to improve the product". RIIIIIGHT.......i might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. |
At the risk of being labeled an ass kisser...I officially love Fat Tony now
Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 11:34 pm GMT by JHile31
Obviously, BPC is not too smart, or atleast doesn't think before he "talks." I have to laugh when I read what he says...every word he types is losing one more order! He's more of a "flip flopper" than John Kerry!!!
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:36 pm GMT by Iron Butt
Well, Yeltzen and Fat Tony pretty much covered it. The emperor wears no - hey wait, there's no emperor even! I really hate the whole mediocrity wrapped in the buzzwords of excellence thing you see so often in business.
Re BPC chip aesthetics, well of course someone likes every-damn-thing; plastic lawn flamingos, free jazz, twinkies, PBR... ahh, good times, good times. I maintain that's demonstrably bad design though.
Re John Kerry, oh puh-lease, can't we just let that poor homely man be? And who weasels more than Bush? Let's just not go there...
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:03 pm GMT by galderon
| JHile31 wrote: | | He's more of a "flip flopper" than John Kerry!!! |
| Iron Butt wrote: | | Re John Kerry, oh puh-lease, can't we just let that poor homely man be? And who weasels more than Bush? Let's just not go there... |
No good can come from the direction this thread is headed.
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:12 pm GMT by Iron Butt
LOL, agreed. I'm about done with this thread anyway unless something really exciting happens.
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:25 pm GMT by JHile31
| Iron Butt wrote: |
Re John Kerry, oh puh-lease, can't we just let that poor homely man be? And who weasels more than Bush? Let's just not go there... |
this wasnt to start a political battle...i dont like either of them, but you cant deny that kerry doesnt know what he wants...lets leave it at that
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 4:02 pm GMT by Fat Tony
please leave any political discussion for another time and another place.
Posted Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:32 am GMT by Haps
BPC your true motivations shine thru in your posts so brightly I can hardly see.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see why people participate in group buys. There is a market for cheaper and/or well designed chips. So as a retailer fill that need or don't. Simple really. Your chips fall into neither category. Tens eqyptians fall under both categories.
If you had posted asking people to pipe up the motivating factor in their group buy purchase was you would have gotten the information you wanted. But wait you didn't want information. You wanted the board to start disallowing group buys because you can't pimp your wares here. And you wanted to cast doubt on Ten and group buys in general.
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