A common situation - How would you play it? |
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Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:56 pm GMT by sergoyaa
I find myself in this situation a lot, and I'm not sure what the best way to play this on the turn is.
This applies to many drawing hands, but for simplicity's sake, let's assume the following:
Tight aggressive table, good players, NL tournament ($5000 in chips) 1st round. Blinds, $25 and $50.
I'm in the SB with A  2
4 players limp including the button and the BB.
The flop is 6 7 K 
Let's not get into whether or not betting here is correct, but lets say I check in 1st position (maybe I have a maniac behind me liable to push all his chips in with top pair or an under pair).
The button bets the standard bet $200. Again, let's not dwell on whether I am correct to call, fold or raise here - it's the turn I want to discuss.
I call, 1 or 2 other players also call (for the sake of argument).
Now, if I turn an A for example, and I feel that my opponent was either betting a weak pair, or the kings with a poor kicker - how would you play this?
This scenario comes up a lot, in many different fashions. You flop a good draw, and turn what is probably the best hand (although I do have kicker trouble, let's assume no one else has the ace).
In a NL situation, is a check raise the best play? I ask, becasue with 3 callers, if the button had a King with a weak kicker, or if he was betting on the come - he is liable to check and take a free card. Even if he has a King with a strong kicker, he may check, fearing the Ace.
If I bet out - I am giving away the strength of my hand (coorect?). In fact, a good player may be able to put me on my exact 2 cards (almost), A x - I would.
Just curious how you would paly this. I know there are a lot of determining factors not discussed - but you get the gist of it I hope.
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Posted Tue Mar 08, 2005 6:57 pm GMT by Iron Butt
I'd bet out strong, and be wanting folds, especially with 3 players remaining. Your aces are not crushing here, you have lots of outs to improve but so do your opponents, if you're not actually behind already (67 suited, K7, 66, etc, all likely limping hands). The optimal outcome is you drive out everyone but a hand you have dominated like say KQs and take all their chips if the flush hits, but even if they all fold, better to win a smaller pot than lose a big one etc.
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:20 am GMT by sergoyaa
Good advise. I'm not an avid check raiser (too many years playing limit) - and I typically do bet out in this situation. Just curious how others play it.
If you are convinced that your Aces are good - would you play it any different? If your oppent has, say KQ (as you mentioned), he would still bet, and if you check raise him all-in, you will most likely get him to lay down his hand and you get an extra big bet out of him (since a check raise typically shows more strength than a bet).
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:19 pm GMT by Iron Butt
LOL... OK yeah, I dunno, if the premise of the question is that you're ahead, the other players all have weak and/or dominated hands and are going to do what you expect when you make your play, and you're going to win no matter what, then sure, checkraise, trap, go crazy with your bad self. I just don't think those are good assumptions.
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 1:56 pm GMT by sergoyaa
| Iron Butt wrote: | | LOL... OK yeah, I dunno, if the premise of the question is that you're ahead, the other players all have weak and/or dominated hands and are going to do what you expect when you make your play, and you're going to win no matter what, then sure, checkraise, trap, go crazy with your bad self. I just don't think those are good assumptions. |
Touche Iron Butt, Touche...
Posted Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:52 pm GMT by Iron Butt
That probably came across a little more smartass and less helpful than I intended... Specifically I'd need a better hand to checkraise there plus some reason to do it. Like let's say I held AKo for top two pair, obviously I don't like all those monster draws out there, and I am absolutely certain that one of my opponents is going to bet.
Posted Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:03 am GMT by howzit
i deleted my post. . ..
Posted Thu Mar 10, 2005 4:28 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
A lot of things can hurt you there. See the river as cheaply as possible, and check no matter what hits so you can appraise the other players' hands. If you hit something big on the river like A or any , you can definitely push in your stack or at least make a sizeable raise. If you miss and someone else comes in aggresively, you can check-fold without having lost too many chips.
Posted Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:45 pm GMT by gol4pro
Option 1) Check raise all in on flop and hope you get folders.
2) Bet out strong on flop and hope you get folders. Check turn if unimproved unless you think you can get your opponent out.
3) check/call the flop and hope to hit the turn for cheap.
Posted Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:19 am GMT by Skribbles
I would play this hand as cheap as possible until you hit you flush. Personally if I have Axs I limp into a pot, just like other could possibly have in this situation.
1) they could have hit two pair with Ax having their kicker hit
2) you really don't have much invested in this hand so why lose a bunch with a weak Ace?
3) With the guy on the button betting out, let him. If decide to stay in and hit on the river, then its the perfect oppurtunity for a check-raise. Esp. in first position with a couple other callers.
Posted Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:40 am GMT by Always_Bored
I think all of you that say to check and play this hand as cheaply as possible are just asking to lose this hand. I say show strength and bet your way to the win. Dont plan on showing down. If you hit your flush then great, but i would bet the flop turn and river, unless i get played back at or have some other reason to believe they have a strong hand.
You probably will take this pot down just by betting hard but if you dont you have a good chance of improving by the river. Spade, 2 or Ace(unless you believe someone else has an ace too).
I think checking to try and conserve your chips is the wrong way to go. Playing to conservatively will lose you money. The aggressor is the one who gets paid in the end of the day. Not the guy who checks waiting for a hand to come. What if he has the king and you have him beat. But he rivers 2 pair? or another king? Dont let him have free cards especially if you are sure you have the best of it.
Posted Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:03 pm GMT by howzit
i change my answer:
check-raise the pot on the turn if you've got a psycho MF on the button.
lead it if it's ABC player. If you get called, you'll probably run into K Q
Posted Sat Apr 09, 2005 8:48 pm GMT by tame_deuces
If you think you got reads, sure thing. But apart from that, trusting top pair w.weak kicker on a 4-player turn with a large chunk of my stack is not something I would do. There is also a problem with defending your hand if you bet, you can't really call with it if someone raises you all-in, which is a definitive possibility with a possible flushdraw on the table (well, I would feel that atleast). In this situation, I personally would probably do one of these: I'd go back to basics;hope to play for the flush with pot odds in mind. There will be other chances. The other possibility for me is just to go all in on a flush-bluff, and pretend I hit something nasty with that ace, but that action would be very table dependant.
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