Posted Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:03 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I hear a lot of talk about "Bad Beats" from various players, but even some of the best (like Phil Helmuth) have definitions that I really disagree with. I would say a "bad beat" is one in which you are beat by a hand that you dominated early in the hand, but which should not have stayed in despite your best efforts and drew its few outs to beat you.
1. That means, if you slowplay AA, check every round, and get beat by A4 that catches a runner-runner set, it's not a bad beat, because you did not play strongly enough to stop the A4 from chasing (sadly, this happened to me once, and it has stopped me from checking Aces since).
2. Similarly, my friend's favorite "bad beat" story is how his quads got cracked by a straight flush. But, he did not get the 4th 7 until the river, and he had been drawing dead against a strongly represented straight flush from the flop. That's not a bad beat because my friend played it badly. He should not have stayed in to catch his monster hand.
3. When your K6 loses to Q8, that's not really a bad beat because you shouldn't usually play K6 to begin with. It's perhaps an outdraw, but not a bad beat. Got that, Phil?
Insights anyone?
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Posted Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:46 am GMT by Always_Bored
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | I would say a "bad beat" is one in which you are beat by a hand that you dominated early in the hand, but which should not have stayed in despite your best efforts and drew its few outs to beat you.
3. When your K6 loses to Q8, that's not really a bad beat because you shouldn't usually play K6 to begin with. It's perhaps an outdraw, but not a bad beat. Got that, Phil?
Insights anyone? |
K,6 is not a dominating hand over Q,8 so by Phils definition its not a bad beat if the Q,8 wins. K,6 is like 65% to win (rough estimate).
As much as i hate Phil Helmuth I would have to agree with his definition.
Posted Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:48 am GMT by galderon
A bad beat, to me, is where you are a huge favorite post flop, and end up losing the hand on the turn or the river. How much of a favorite you need to be for it to qualify is up in the air. Preflop, you can't have a bad beat...even AA is cracked all the time.
In your first example, AA is only really a bad beat if it improves his hand to be a huge favorite after the flop.
Your second example is a beat, but not a bad beat. If the other guy had a straight flush on the flop, your friend was always behind. It's not a bad beat if you were never ahead.
Third example...well, a K6 can get a bad beat against Q8...it depends on the flop. I imagine a flop like 6, 6, blank, and then turn of 8, river of 8, would qualify as a bad beat.
Posted Wed Mar 16, 2005 4:08 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| galderon wrote: | | Your second example is a beat, but not a bad beat. If the other guy had a straight flush on the flop, your friend was always behind. It's not a bad beat if you were never ahead. |
he never claimed the second example was a bad beat, just that his friend thinks it is. in fact, he says straight out that it's NOT a bad beat.
Posted Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:10 pm GMT by galderon
| Fat Tony wrote: | | he never claimed the second example was a bad beat, just that his friend thinks it is. in fact, he says straight out that it's NOT a bad beat. |
Oh, I think for the most part I agree with xDiamond_CutteRx. I was just restating from my point of view. I should have said, "Yes, I agree that it isn't a bad beat, and here's my reasoning..."
My main point is that I think bad beats don't really come into play until after the flop. Any pocket hand can be beat any other pocket hand, it doesn't get interesting until you see the flop. To qualify as a bad beat, you need to be ahead after the flop by a good margin, only to lose to miracle cards on the turn and/or river. In the first example, slowplaying AA could be considered a bad beat, but only because you're inviting a bad beat.
Posted Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:46 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I disagree there also. Because if you make a decent raise with AA and someone calls and outdraws with something like Q8, I think that's a bad beat. The only exception might be in a tournament in which the Q8 guy has lots of chips and the AA is short-stacked. But up against a strong raise, you shouldn't usually play Q8.
Posted Wed Mar 16, 2005 8:00 pm GMT by 1988 TR
The only bad beats that are truly disgusting are the all in on the flop & you have the guy absolutely stomped. Only outs are runnner, runner.
Example - You have AA vs 77.
Flop comes A K 4 and homeboy with the 77 wants to represent by going all in. You call with the AAA.
Turn 7
River 7
That is a bad f'n beat.
Or another :
You flop trips and homeboy stone cold bluffs and you call.
Two hearts flopped and you have none & homeboy has one.
Turn Heart
River Heart
That is a bad f'n beat.
Posted Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:45 am GMT by galderon
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | I disagree there also. Because if you make a decent raise with AA and someone calls and outdraws with something like Q8, I think that's a bad beat. The only exception might be in a tournament in which the Q8 guy has lots of chips and the AA is short-stacked. But up against a strong raise, you shouldn't usually play Q8. |
Just because Q8 isn't a smart hand to play, it doesn't mean that it automatically becomes a bad beat if it happens to crack aces. For example, maybe the Q8 is in the big blind, so he's playing for a discount, and the AA guy is a known bluffer...the Q8 would have every reason to play, even if just because he misread the guy. If the flop has a top card of a queen, the Q8 might stick around with top pair, and if he beats the AA with an Q or 8 on the turn or river, I still wouldn't call it a bad beat.
AA just isn't that good of a hand, by itself, to qualify for a bad beat. I'll agree to disagree with you here. 
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