Posted Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:01 pm GMT by QuietOne
Playing a home NL hold'em tourney over the weekend. $30 buy in, 24 people playing. Started with 100 chips, was down to 2 at one point (A really bad move by my brother not putting me all in and leaving me with 2 chips). Built it back up to about 90 when I was the big blind and got J7o.
Normally a hand I fold but I'm the BB. 2 people called - no one raised. The 2 people who called I know don't have a pair because the 100% of the time raise with a pair. They are just trying to see the flop for free. I assume either suited or connectors.
The flop comes up 7, 2, 3 rainbow.
Ok, I've for a pair of 7's with a jack kicker. I'm not worried about trips because I know no one has a pair. And I'm not so worried about 2 pair because the cards are so low. These guys would not have stayed in cards like that. They would have at least had one overcard.
I bet 20 chips (the pot is about 12 chips, blinds are still low. I probably should have bet more but in the case it wouldn't have mattered.) The next guy folds. The guy on the button, who's got just a few more than me) doubles it. I go all in. I figure the only thing that can beat me is another 7 with a higher kicker and what are the odds of that?
He called flips over 7Ao
After no help on the turn of river I'm looking for some side action to make some money.
I'd like to know what you think.
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Posted Mon Mar 21, 2005 2:03 pm GMT by NickFlynn
I think if you can't beat TPTK, you have no business shoving all your chips into the pot.
Besides the A7, you were beat by 32, 33 and 22. Despite your comments about being 100% certain no one had a pair, 22-77 are all hands that most folks will limp in with.
The range of reasonable hands your raiser had include A7, K7 (sooted), 77, 87, 76, 22, 33, 23. Of those, you can only beat 87 and 76.
Why screw around in such a marginal situation early in a tournament?
- Nick
Posted Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:51 pm GMT by QuietOne
I guess you didn't read my post. Why was I in? I was the BB. The odds were in my favor. I was short stacked. I had a Jack for a kicker. AND LIKE I SAID, I KNOW THESE GUYS! I know if they had a pair, they would have raised. DIDN'T I SAY THAT???????
And I was right!
Only three hands could have beat me. 7A, 7K, 7Q. There was no trips, or flushes or straights. Being short stacked (I was short stacked because I got into a hand with the nut flush after the river and the other guy drew to a boat on the river. Why did he bet when I was raiseing big I can't tell you.)
Look, I do appreciate you answering me, but if you not going to bother to read my post, don't answer.
Posted Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:56 pm GMT by Always_Bored
| QuietOne wrote: |
Look, I do appreciate you answering me, but if you not going to bother to read my post, don't answer. |
if your going to act like this then your not going to get many answers at all. This is a forum of open discussion and he was making his point if you dont like then fine. However maybe you could be a little less rude about it.
Posted Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:37 pm GMT by age_of_sages
It sounds to me like you're just baiting people to question your play and then when they do you get a kick of telling them how utterly foolish they are.
And YOUR question is unanswerable as you left out important information about what these guys table image is. Are they likely to bluff in this situation? How loose are they other than raising any pp? What kind of hands do they like to play?
If you're going to ridicule others for anwersing incomplete questions, don't pose an incomplete question yourself.
Posted Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:28 pm GMT by titans4ever
He was just puting the pressure back on you to call, raise or fold there. What if he had big slick or something large and figured you had nothing also. Would you have felt better if he had 9 10o and hit the 10 on the river?
What were the turn and river cards.
You tried to defend your hand by going all-in and got called. I am sure you did not want him to call. I just don't see why you went all-in.
The way I see it you and your friend both had the same idea, he just had the nut kicker. You were both roughly even in chips and had top pair post flop. You over committed on an average hand. I would have folded and lived to see the next hand. You said the blinds are still low.
Just because you saw the flop for free, you still can lay it down when someone raises you. You said normally you would lay that hand down, so why didn't you after the flop on a reraise? Did you expect the pair of sevens to be top hand after the river?
Posted Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:36 pm GMT by Jauron
I don't like the size of the bet on the flop, you are exposing too many of your chips when the pot size bet should take care of things, once he reraises you, you can get away from the hand. Sure it only saves you 8 chips, but overbetting the pot just makse you look desperate IMHO, the only thing that can call you or raise you has you beat most likely. Slow down, give yourself a chance to win the pot, but also get away from what is essentitally an iffy hand now.
I agree that with the way you played it you either had to fold or move them in once you faced the reraise, you can't call for half your chips.
The odds he has a 7? Pretty good actually, if you are sure he has no PP, and he reraised you what else could he have here? You can't really afford to be wrong about this one. Time to fold I think.
Posted Mon Mar 21, 2005 7:43 pm GMT by Jauron
One last tip for you, whenever the pot is unraised I keep telling myself during the hand not to go broke in an unraised pot with a marginal hand. It takes at least 2 pair in an unraised pot for me to usually be willing to go broke, and even then I'm still looking for the scare cards the whole time. I have to know it's not unreasonable for ANY hand to be in with me, but usuallly the obvious hand is the right one.
If the board comes J,9,3 and some guy is going heavy at the flop, he is most likely to have J9. I shouldn't try to find a way to "decide" he doesn't if he got to limp.
If I have a hand like KJ and I let everyone limp, I should not be willing to go broke with this hand in a tourney, more times than not I'm beat on that flop if I see real agression. I can try to see the turn and hope to improve, but I can't just say "hey I've got top pair, great kicker, what has this clown got" in an unraised pot. I've got to realize he can have anything and be MORE willing to lay it down. If I've raised then I can start to eliminate certain hands.
In an unraised pot it's more than fine to lead out and bet, but dont expose too many of your chips if you have to lead out first, you know if you get called your likely beat, and unless you improve or you know for sure he'll just take the pot away on the turn if you check, consider checking or folding to a reraise. You got in the pot cheap, now get out cheap as well unless your hand is too good to get away from.
A pair of 7's with a Jack is never too good to get away from unless you are desperately short stacked.
Just something to think about.
Posted Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:33 pm GMT by gol4pro
Do you have a screen name online. If so, wanna play?
Give me a break dude. You clearly didn't have any sort of a read on the button. And you're trying to tell me to a 100% degree of certainty that he would have raised 22/33/88/99/TT preflop?
With just his play on the flop, the minimum you can put him on is A7. Otherwise, a weak overpair is more likely.
What's the point of overbetting the pot? Bet 2/3 of the pot as a probe bet, and see where you are at. You have an OK hand at this point, but it's very vulnerable to overcards. In addition, a better kicker is quite likely.
I can't see the button reraising 78, 76, or 79 here. That leaves K7, A7, 88,99,TT,22,33 as the most likely holdings... none of which you have beat.
Posted Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:58 pm GMT by TheSalche
Yeah I'm gonna go ahead and say you should have folded after that raise buddy ... most people play Axo, and if you say your friend will raise with a pair ... you know hes got the seven, why throw away your chips when you've been down to 2 chips at one point and come back to 90?
Poor play, you were probably in the heat of the moment.
Posted Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:49 pm GMT by tame_deuces
You say the blinds are still low? Then I think putting out a move with low pair with J kicker to gain 3 blinds is definitively the wrong thing do. You could afford to wait for better odds then.
Posted Mon Apr 11, 2005 9:10 pm GMT by cdjos
| Jauron wrote: | | One last tip for you, whenever the pot is unraised I keep telling myself during the hand not to go broke in an unraised pot with a marginal hand. |
This is excellent advice. If only I could get it through skull and actually follow it. 
Posted Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:29 am GMT by Muck
Okay you know they have Overcard Rag
Overcard = Needs to be worth a blind call A K J
Rag = 7 3 2
You bet significantly, they raise likewise.
They’re not going to raise into that kind of aggression with middle or bottom pair. Likewise it would be a foolish time for them to bluff since most of the money in the pot if from the guy who looks determined to get even more in.
So it’s pretty clear what they were representing. What did you think they had?
Posted Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:03 am GMT by Soup_dog
| cdjos wrote: | | Jauron wrote: | | One last tip for you, whenever the pot is unraised I keep telling myself during the hand not to go broke in an unraised pot with a marginal hand. |
This is excellent advice. If only I could get it through skull and actually follow it. |
Good quote Jauron. Now that I sit back and think about, this is a situation that I lose money on a regular basis. I think you may have just helped me find a hole in my game. Thanks a bunch!
Posted Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:42 pm GMT by deadmoney28
i dont know.. if you said u knew u they didnt have a pair or anything.. u coulda tried to bluff preflop.. that means you have good reads on them.. and ur right they didnt have a pair.. i woulda liked to have seen a bluff preflop
Posted Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:12 am GMT by Bleedingshrimp
| Quote: | | I think if you can't beat TPTK, you have no business shoving all your chips into the pot. |
That's the whole story right there.
Posted Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:44 am GMT by Dave B
| cdjos wrote: | | Jauron wrote: | | One last tip for you, whenever the pot is unraised I keep telling myself during the hand not to go broke in an unraised pot with a marginal hand. |
This is excellent advice. If only I could get it through skull and actually follow it. |
If you have such solid reads on this guy, then it is likely that they know you will push a pot here, so the guy slowplaying A7 was just baiting you, knowing that you would come in if you got any part of this.
I might bet pot, but then shut down if called or fold if raised.
Remember one key point (which is why I grabbed the post above)-sometimes checking down w/ a solid hand allows you to grab many pots later. People remember when you dont bet top pair in a NL tournament. The old joke about mucking AA preflop and showing the fold so people know you are serious. Sometimes giving a little on one hand will pay off several times over on subsequent hands. If he catches-you lose a blind, no biggie.
I have been on a great run at SNGs lately. At least 1/2 that I have won, I was the short stack or didnt improve my starting chips until round 4-5. One key-dont steal blinds early. Even if you think you have a hand that is better than 2 random hands, let it go. Sure, every 30 hands or so it wont hurt if you are sliding back from your starting amount, but dont over do it. People (well, most people) remember when you raise their blind and when they dont. If you fold 2-3 smalls when there is no action, that is remembered. So a small raise later when the blinds are 200/100 gets a ton of respect.
I had a great run last night at 5/10. For about 3 rounds in a row I raised 6-7 times preflop and everyone folded to me, not great action, but that is $40-50 of free money. A couple times I did it with Q9 and 89-hey, if no one wants to play against a hot hand, I am going to take free money. I also won a very nice pot w/ 67 suited, 5 way action, I was in the middle of raisers that capped preflop. Flop K74, I call (3 fold-3 remain), turn K, I bet out, all fold. 5 other players in a capped pot, do you think any had KK776 beat? I am sure I did. Respect will get you free money, no respect will get you action, pick your poison and use both effectively.
Posted Mon Apr 18, 2005 11:15 pm GMT by monkmask
A typical beginner mistake was made in your thought process here.
I bet 20 chips (the pot is about 12 chips, blinds are still low. I
probably should have bet more but in the case it wouldn't have
mattered.) The next guy folds. The guy on the button, who's got
just a few more than me) doubles it. I go all in. I figure the only
thing that can beat me is another 7 with a higher kicker and what
are the odds of that?
Actually the odds of him having another 7 with a higher kicker was low only until he raised your bet. After the raise, the odds are actually pretty high. Remember, your opponent has a brain too. =)
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