Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:03 pm GMT by snoogins47
No specific reads: assume sane, but not necessarily good.
5/10 Hold'em (5 handed)
Preflop: Hero is Button with Ah, Ad.
1 fold, MP raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, 1 fold, MP calls, Hero calls.
Flop: (13 SB) 6d, Jh, 6s (3 players)
SB bets, MP calls, Hero calls.
Turn: (8 BB) Kc (3 players)
SB bets, MP raises, Hero folds...
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Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:11 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Good fold. You were probably 50/50 to go broke there.
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:14 pm GMT by Jauron
I hate AA and KK in limit. Unless I hit a set I know it's going to probably just cost me money if anybody shows aggression. Did you get to find out if you were in fact beat, or maybe a better question, what hand did you put him on to fold it there? Just curious more than anything. Probably KJ or a set?
I was reading a poker article a few months back about a guy who decided to fold AA preflop the next time he got it, thinking that if he was able to fold that hand preflop, every other fold would be easier to make. He kept forgetting to do it though and then he finally did I guess.
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:18 pm GMT by Dave B
Bad fold. Bad play over all.
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:25 pm GMT by howzit
Can a limit player explain to me why you wouldn't raise the flop, and even the turn?
KJ or AK are totally in play here. . .
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:31 pm GMT by Iron Butt
I'd have a hard time making that fold... I'd be wanting to put MP on AK and the other on any PP but JJ, 66, or KK LOL. The MP turn raise looks like trying to protect AK to me. So what happened?
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:39 pm GMT by snoogins47
Thanks for the analysis, Dave.
Sean: If I'm 50/50 to win, it's an awful fold.
Jaur: I didn't think that the player that raised the turn would play AK this way, nor KQ, KJ (which I'm ahead of), etc. I figured JJ/KK were the only logical conclusions here.
Howzit: I didn't raise the flop, with the intention of raising most turns... when the K hits and it comes back two cold to me, I had to re-think that plan.
Iron Butt: "So what happened?" Since it doesn't necessarily matter what he had that time, I'm gonna hold off on that till there's a bit more discussion.
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:46 pm GMT by Dave B
I am sure the blind had some crap like 76 and the other guy had KK or JJ or else snoogie wouldnt have posted anything.
HOWEVER.....6 handed 5/10 @ Party is a very lose game. People will cap w/ any pair and hope to steal on the flop. By folding AA here after committing $20 to the pot and at least $90 in there, you have the winner at least 1/2 the time-you need to call this short handed in limit.
I agree-you raise the flop here 100% of the time w/ that flop and in position. By not doing this, you open it up to the thieves on the turn-at this point, you will likely see a raise or check raise by either player if they are worth a damn whether they have a hand or not. If you dont want to raise, then at least call down. If you raise the flop and someone 3 bets-then IF you need to call 2 more bets on the turn cold, then maybe you can laydown, not wanting in invest $40-80 more to see if you AA is good.
I like you snoogins, dont like the play here. Push the Aces harder-then let go after gaining info. You just played weak here.
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:14 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Dave B wrote: | I am sure the blind had some crap like 76 and the other guy had KK or JJ or else snoogie wouldnt have posted anything.
HOWEVER.....6 handed 5/10 @ Party is a very lose game. People will cap w/ any pair and hope to steal on the flop. By folding AA here after committing $20 to the pot and at least $90 in there, you have the winner at least 1/2 the time-you need to call this short handed in limit.
I agree-you raise the flop here 100% of the time w/ that flop and in position. By not doing this, you open it up to the thieves on the turn-at this point, you will likely see a raise or check raise by either player if they are worth a damn whether they have a hand or not. If you dont want to raise, then at least call down. If you raise the flop and someone 3 bets-then IF you need to call 2 more bets on the turn cold, then maybe you can laydown, not wanting in invest $40-80 more to see if you AA is good.
I like you snoogins, dont like the play here. Push the Aces harder-then let go after gaining info. You just played weak here. |
This isn't the party 5/10 6max. I don't really have much experience there, but from what I've heard, it's quite the crazy game... anyway, the stupid gray area of "reads" are what really make this hand tricky... if my assumptions are correct, my play is as well... if not, then clearly it's a bad fold. Granted, I probably only need to win this pot around 20% of the time... i dunno. I think a more interesting discussion that can come from this would be the flop play.
They're calling the flop if I raise, which is good. They're calling the turn if I raise, which is twice as good. Nobody is going to lay down hardly anything here, and I'm way ahead most of the time, which is what makes me want to wait until the turn.... I'm not so much looking for information on that flop as I am looking to get as much money into the pot as I can, and I think the turn raise tends to be more effective, especially since giving a "cheap card" hardly ever hurts me... if I'm ahead, the worst I'm looking at is 2 outs to beat me, so I don't think I need to show strength yet. I really think raising the turn is the superior line to take, ignoring my little oddball exception that I folded.
Much of the reason I posted this is that I'm invariably the person telling people they made bad folds in big pots in limit, and here I go and fold AA on a board like that. Good fodder for discussion.
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:24 pm GMT by Dave B
I posted this a few days ago-not the exact situation, but this is the way I like to play big hands in limit. Take control of the hand, then have the opportunity to skip a bet if I get scared later. People said to bet the boat, I still check it, feeling that someone might be on KK or JJ if they didnt have the AA which was my read. If you had played this similarly, you may have taken down the pot here if someone did have AJ AK KJ (unlikely) or QQ.
http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/forum/t9544/did-i-miss-a-bet-would-you-have-fired
Remember, you cant push people off big pots, but here is an example where representing AK or KK can be just as effective as having it-so I am concerned about a stone cold bluff at a big pot.
I think that QQ or AK is as likely as X6, KK JJ-but I see it as a 50/50 shot that I am in the lead -so get me to the river on the button as cheaply as possible. Then let me check or call if I like the next 2 cards.
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:25 pm GMT by Jauron
I totally missed the flop bringing 6,6.
I don't think I would have folded that. There are too many hands that raise here in MP seat to me. KK seems the least likely really, he should want your call, not scare it away if he truely just hit one of his two outs. Seems a strange time to reraise.
JJ, maybe...but honestly with a chance to collect your bet behind him I have to question this play as well, why not reraise on the river instead?
AK- this hand seems more likely to raise here, he doesn't have a lock here and didn't have enough to raise on the flop with you capping.
A6 or X6 or even 66 seems the most likely however, but this is a tough buy if MP has been playing well at all.
I dunno, you must have picked up on something to make you want to lay this down.
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:08 pm GMT by Iron Butt
Hmm. OK, the more I think about it the more I don't like the SB turn lead out. If I want to believe I'm ahead of the SB, putting him on a smaller 2 pair made in whatever way, the K needs to be a scare card for him, and I need him to be checking not betting $10. Someone's got the boat or at least trips, probably the SB, a great fold I probably would have missed.
So is there to be a revelation? Rabbits out of hats, you dodged quads and kings full?
Posted Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:44 pm GMT by Dave B
the key for me is 5 handed-this is NOT a full table.
Yes, scare cards aplenty, but I still like my chances w/ the overpair here.
Posted Tue Mar 29, 2005 4:38 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Dave B wrote: | | Bad fold. Bad play over all. |
lol, sorry, I agree. In NL, I can lay that down, but for structured, you got to call.
Posted Thu Apr 07, 2005 4:11 pm GMT by Dr_Pablo
i think he was definatley up against JJ or KK, the flop was Jack high, and there are 3 players to the flop that is capped. I dont know how many players in the SB position will make a bet into a 3 way capped pot with just two overcards, hes pretty much guranteed to be called. At this point i would put him on qq KK, possibly TT if he was loose enough. I dont see him betting the jacks UTG full house. the sb then leads out again on the turn after 3 callers with just TPTK, assuming he has AK. i think leading out against a K with QQ is possible as well, but not to likley. And now were on to MP, he opens the betting preflop, so we could put him on a hand as strong as KK, and a hand as weak as 66 or KJ, JJ and AJ being inbetween, AK also possible for him. Now he just calls on a flop of 6 j 6, could this call be to sucker snoogins into a call to, with a strong hand like JJ, 66(doubtful.) or could it be a poor call with KJ, or are we relieing on him and SB on overplaying AK both? now MP raises when the K hits, so now we lose to JJ, 66, KK(Not likley for MP as it is SB) KJ, any insanley played hand with a 6, and what are we beating here? QQ, AK, AJ a heart draw, or any very poorly played hand. our hand is TOP pair. and it has very little chance of improving. also by calling this bet you risk being re raised by the SB, and even capped by the MP, here you would know you were beat and have wasted some bets. Or say you just call, and SB just calls. Now you have a river which can land a heart and now you lose to any Axsuited hearts, any trips, any two pair, alot of hands beat you.
while the math may be correct to check call it down, i think its in vein, and i think the river will be 3 betted, if not capped, and the turn probably as well. my analysis is probably poor, but i agree with snoogins on this one, that hand is top pair, and nothing more.
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