Posted Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:46 am GMT by Muck
This happened last night and got me thinking about draw hands and how I play them before the flop.
I.e.
Limp in and hope for the hit then bet
or
Move All-in and hope to take the blinds or hold up against one caller.
£7K prize fund
8500 Chips 40th of 700. 80 Players remaining. Average stack at my table is 7000.
Blinds 300 & 600 + 75 Ante each
On the button with A Ks
4 Calls. Pot 4050.
I raise All-in for 8500.
One caller with 2 2.
Flop 2 7 A rainbow
Turn 8
RiverA
Now this is an awful example because I would have been all in on the Flop or River even if I’d limped in.
But my point is “what kind of stack to pot ratio do you think warrants an all-in rather than limb with AKs”?
NB: Ignoring the times when the blinds are low enough to suggest a measured pre-flop raise is the best option.
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Posted Thu Apr 07, 2005 6:36 am GMT by snoogins47
With blinds that large and such a huge pot, now's probably as good a time as any to push.
Thinking of AK as a drawing hand is a flawed point of view
Posted Thu Apr 07, 2005 12:51 pm GMT by badvb750
| Quote: | | Thinking of AK as a drawing hand is a flawed point of view |
How so? He has to draw to beat any pocket pair, becuase he is playing behind. AK is a drawing hand no matter what level the blinds are. I don't get why it is flawed to look at AK as a drawing hand. Granted I would rather push with AK, then any other connector. But, I would be less inclinced to call with AK against two all-ins, but again even that depends on my stack, their stacks and their style of play.
Posted Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:15 pm GMT by howzit
yes and no about AK being drawing.
What if AK is facing AQ or KQ. then it's essentially a made hand.
Those blind sizes and dead money in an unraised pot AK suited is the hand to live and die with.
Posted Thu Apr 07, 2005 1:32 pm GMT by badvb750
| howzit wrote: | yes and no about AK being drawing.
What if AK is facing AQ or KQ. then it's essentially a made hand.
Those blind sizes and dead money in an unraised pot AK suited is the hand to live and die with. |
True, AK is the favorite, but you still have to be not unlucky in those situations. Becuase AQ will win 28% of the time, so it is really a race as to wether the Q will rear her ugly head. However, I will push with AK in most cases, but I still know I am drawing to win or hoping not to be unlucky.
Posted Sat Apr 09, 2005 9:05 pm GMT by snoogins47
| badvb750 wrote: | | Quote: | | Thinking of AK as a drawing hand is a flawed point of view |
How so? He has to draw to beat any pocket pair, becuase he is playing behind. AK is a drawing hand no matter what level the blinds are. I don't get why it is flawed to look at AK as a drawing hand. Granted I would rather push with AK, then any other connector. But, I would be less inclinced to call with AK against two all-ins, but again even that depends on my stack, their stacks and their style of play. |
"Drawing" and "made" are arbitrary distinctions. They *can* affect how the hands will be played on future streets, granted. But here there's no play on later streets. Pot equity (AKA: how often you will win the hand) is the only thing that matters.
It's quite easy to see why a "made hand" can be worse off than a "drawing hand" preflop, given certain ranges of hands.
Take for instance a player who is apt to call an all in with any pair, AK, or AQ. Here, AK is intensely stronger than 22, despite the arbitrary distinction of it being a "drawing" hand. This was just a quick example but it's not hard to find many others.
Now, it doesn't even have to be against specific ranges of hands. Pretend Joe Boxer comes up to you and offers you $100 a hand, straight up. Here's the scoop.
The board is 2d 5h 6h. Two hands are turned face up.
One is a pair of black Queens. The other is 7h 8h.
After you pick one of the two, a turn and river are dealt, and whoever holds the best hand wins the pot.
78h is "drawing." But you're a fool if you take the Queens.
The only time the distinction between "drawing" and "made" should come into play is when it may affect play on future streets (essentially, made hands tend to go up in value as the "draws" miss on fourth, and missed draws have very little showdown value compared to weak made hands) but it's still a fairly unnecessary distinction. When there's no possibility of any money changing hands on future streets, it's completely moot.
Posted Mon Apr 11, 2005 10:31 am GMT by howzit
| badvb750 wrote: | | True, AK is the favorite, but you still have to be not unlucky in those situations. Becuase AQ will win 28% of the time, so it is really a race as to wether the Q will rear her ugly head. |
Sorry to be a nit but having to hear this makes me cringe. a ~7:3 situation can't be considered a race. It doesn't fall into that category. AQ vs. AK is clearly a dominated situation, not a race. And if you don't want to get your money in w/that big of an advantage, you are leaving too much money on the table.
Get your money in w/the BEST OF IT. That means getting in as a 7:3 favorite preflop and avoiding a queen.
Posted Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:40 pm GMT by gol4pro
All in is the obvious move here. Any idiot willing to risk most of his stack on a pair of 2's preflop will gladly be added to my buddy list.
Posted Sat Apr 30, 2005 5:34 am GMT by titans4ever
Way too many variables for this situation. Are you first to act, what table position are you in, what is your table image, how many callers/ raises have happened?
You only get a pair on big slick about 50% of the time if taken all the way to the river. Do you want to put your whole day on a coin flip? I know it depends on what the other person has but how many hands are won with high card.
You have to raise with it in all positions but to risk your whole day preflop is hard to swollow on any drawing hand (even if it the best possible one). I hate going all in preflop unless short stacked. You had an above average stack so I would raise but see the flop before going all in. Chances are slim but what if you end up against AA or KK. Preflop you are a dire situation (those two can really limit your outs to take the hand).
In early position or first to act I would raise 3-4x the large blind (my standard raise) and see what happens and call a re-raise and possibly fold it if it comes putting you all in (based on read of player re-raising you).
Middle to late with just limpers I would raise big 4-5 times the big blind or re-raise a small bet. If you get callers you know they also have a good starting hand.
Middle to late first to act, you must raise to scare off blinds since could have no clue what they have with a free peak.
You have to go with your gut instinct at the time and that is it. You made the right call at that time for you and it worked out. Confidence is huge in poker and you have to believe you made the right call even if you did not get the ace on the river.
If you followed my advice you probably never would have seen the river card and lost the hand instead of almost doubling up so what do I know. That is my style and I can live with it at the end of the day.
Posted Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:03 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| titans4ever wrote: | | If you followed my advice you probably never would have seen the river card and lost the hand instead of almost doubling up so what do I know. |
He lost the hand. Deuces full to trip Aces.
Posted Sat Apr 30, 2005 2:44 pm GMT by titans4ever
oops, my bad on missing the full house. Hate reading a the board on the internet. Guess you may have saved some chips if you took my advice and lived to see another hand.
Posted Mon May 02, 2005 1:29 am GMT by snoogins47
| titans4ever wrote: | | You have to raise with it in all positions but to risk your whole day preflop is hard to swollow on any drawing hand (even if it the best possible one). |
I hate to be a little bitch and harp on this, but looking at AK as "a drawing hand" is very flawed, and I suggest you read my above posts if you'd like to see my reasoning and possibly argue with me... lord knows I like a good argument now and then.
Posted Sat May 07, 2005 11:19 am GMT by Zig
I love the discussions and theories out there on KA preflop
I've read several of them and based on personal experience - I will never be the agressor and go allin - raise yes, and if reraised to allin - that depends on where I am in the tournament. If it's early - I fold them, but if I need a hand to double or triple up with - then I'll take my chances.
My point is - if it's early - why do you want to bet your tournament on a coin flip? What's the point? Why choose a racing hand that early preflop?
I like the following analogy - If you were Michael Jordan and were in a contest to win a million dollars - how would you want to play it?
A - one fan picked from the crowd takes a shot at the basket - if he scores he wins, if he misses you win. OR:
B - you play one on one - first to reach 20 wins
I think of KA allin preflop as putting you in that first scenario - sure they are 2 good cards, but it isnt made yet no matter what you're facing. Even if you are against 7-2 - if he hits the 2 on the flop - he is now around a 70% favourite to win.
Unlike scenario B , now all your talents for playing poker are wrapped up in a hand that needs something from the turn or river to win.
Choose your fights when they are strong to win - dont go allin on something like a KA.
The only reason you see it on TV alot of the time is because something drastic will happen, NOT because it is a big winning hand. It's a racing hand - it's good for television against low pockets...etc.
If it's early, I'll pretty much go allin if called, if I have QQ, KK, or AA. That's it - everything else is too dangerous to risk an early exit from a tournament. Call me cautious - but playing cautiously has been more successful overall than playing those racing hands too aggressively.
Cheers
Z
Posted Mon May 09, 2005 9:26 am GMT by Muck
Okay a couple of people have mentioned what stage of the tournament I was at and what position at the table. I did mention some of these details.
| Me wrote: |
8500 Chips 40th of 700. 80 Players remaining. Average stack at my table is 7000.
Blinds 300 & 600 + 75 Ante each
On the button with A Ks
|
As for reputation, I’d only been at table for 2 orbits and hadn’t seen any flops. So I guess people would have put me down as a tight player. There’d been a lot of pre-flop raises and blind stealing, I hadn’t been picking much up and was getting frustrated so I think my judgement was a bit on tilt.
Anyway I think my situation was border line. I wasn’t comfortable but I wasn’t desperate either. On one hand it was quite late so I was getting close to the money, I certainly wouldn’t say it was too early in the tournament to be taking risks. On the other hand the blinds were starting to become significant.
I saw this as a limp or all-in situation. Some people have said a 4 xBB or even 5 xBB raise could have been employed here.
5 * 600 = 3000 = approx 1/3 my stack
Now I agree that the best play with AK can be a pre-flop raise sometimes but in this situation it seems like I would over commited myself.
Now I know a lot of people believe in the matrixesk saying “there is no pot commitment”. Indeed you can fold at any time.
But had I raised and folded later I would be left in a situation where the need to double up was even greater and my time frame even shorter :
On the other hand a raise would give me the advantage of playing my position after the flop. Then again the pot would be so large even an all-in at that point may not force him out.
I duno  Poker aye, who'd play it 
Posted Mon May 09, 2005 1:45 pm GMT by snoogins47
Am I accidentally posting in French or something?
Posted Mon May 09, 2005 2:03 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| snoogins47 wrote: | | Am I accidentally posting in French or something? |
Qoi?
Posted Tue May 10, 2005 3:25 am GMT by Muck
| snoogins47 wrote: | | Am I accidentally posting in French or something? |
I didn't mention drawing, or was this directed at someone else.
Posted Tue May 10, 2005 7:56 pm GMT by Hurricane Ham
Sure, AK is a racing hand, not necessarily a big winning hand. Your point?
You need to win races to win the tournament. It's as simple as that. If I think there's a race situation, I'm in with my AK to take that chance to knock someone out or double up. Dropping a buy-in to play "safe poker" for the next three hours only to finish out on the bubble because I mised out on a few races early on isn't what I was looking to get into when I started the tournament.
And I'm with snoogins, thinking of AK as a drawing hand is flawed. Yes, at the end of the day it still needs to draw to improve, but people push and call with a lot less than that. I'll take the chance they've got an AQ or worse, and if it's a pair, I'm not crushed that I'll have a 50 50 shot to win.
Posted Thu May 12, 2005 9:05 pm GMT by ORGrinder
regardless of hand (what qualifies as a worth hand to play... in the end... is up to the player based on their experiance to that point at the table)... i like to use the stop-and-go if i'm going to be going all in anyway.
if i need to move all in (e.g. short on chips... big blinds) and i decide now is the time to do so... i often will limp preflop and try to get a caller. at this point i've decided to go all in regardless anyway... so i want as much $$ in the pot as possible. then, when the flop comes i move all in no matter what.
Raymer talks about this method and uses it himself on occasion (when called for).
Posted Sun May 15, 2005 1:44 pm GMT by ponyneck
quotei often will limp preflop and try to get a caller. at this point i've decided to go all in regardless anyway... so i want as much $$ in the pot as possible. then, when the flop comes i move all in no matter what. /quote quote
When you make this move you give yourself one way to win. You must have the best hand on the river after all the cards are out. If you just push the hand pre-flop you have two, you can make the best hand or you can take it down right there. I'm not saying the situation that started this post warrents an all in, BUT when your short stacked, it's a different story. Trying to build a big pot and rolling the dice regardless of the flop is reckless. Not to say it wouldn't work sometimes. As far as Raymer doing it, he's playing at the highest level. People are able to make big laydowns. Any pair will call you at the lower levels. That makes it dangerous to move in blind.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 4:53 pm GMT by krakajak
The push here is plain as day. I push here with any pocket pair, AT or better, and KQ. If I were BB, I might push with any 2 cards.
I would never limp here. The only time I might not push would be if I had a huge stack (20,000 or better), and there was another stack at least that big in the hand as well.
The only times I advocate limping with AK are (1) if you are in EP, and you are fairly certain the pot will be raised behind you, or (2) if you are in the blinds, and the pot is very small.
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